The trans debate

[Currywurst and Chips]

I think that stands for Two Spirit, lesbian, gay, bi, trans, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual +anyone else. So no, no more sexes, just the two

Intersex is a medical condition and is therefore identified by the profession as not being either male or female.

And still the number is 2

[Max B Gold]

I think that stands for Two Spirit, lesbian, gay, bi, trans, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual +anyone else. So no, no more sexes, just the two

Intersex is a medical condition and is therefore identified by the profession as not being either male or female.

And still the number is 2

Mere semantics

[CEB]

I can't be the only one who had Keef down as a pronouns in the email signature (Ally) kinda guy

Glad I was wrong

Funnily enough, it was after I went on a bit of a rant here many years ago after Frank Maloney came out as trans & I had a go at people who were dubious about it that I had a bit of a “what am I banging on about here? I’m just saying what I think I should say” moment, & then found that absolutely nobody who thinks men literally become women (regardless of the mechanism by which they get there) can actually articulate what the hell they mean by it…

But the moment I realised quite how messed up it was was when I did a degree as a mature student and saw lesbians on my course called transphobic for saying they don’t do willy, and young, same sex attracted women with short hair questioned about when they were gonna just get their sh*t together and come out as trans. A bald male lecturer (not a biologist, believe it or not) said with a straight face that there was no such thing as biological sex.

[tuffers#1]

That’s vague and unconvincing. Male people and female people exist, and are distinct from each other. Whatever legalistic view of the world you’re waffling about, males and females will continue to exist, and have differing needs. You haven’t yet offered a compelling reason as to why society shouldn’t be aware of the differing needs of male and female people, and have ignored several examples I’ve given as to why it’s important to continue to recognise sex differences.
But you have a postie that you like, which I guess works as that unbiased, broad, helicopter view you were talking about before…

Not wanting to be disrespectful so please take the question just as a question ,

Are there people who identify as Animal People
Could i for example identify as a Giraffe or an Elephant ,
Regardless of gender .

Or could I further identify as an atom/s for example a
Computer hard drive but not artificial intelligence but as
A physical embodiment of a computer ?

Its a fascinating topic of existence as in do we actually .

[StockholmO]

A woman with a penis is a woman. It really isn’t difficult to understand.

[CEB]

Intersex is a medical condition and is therefore identified by the profession as not being either male or female.

And still the number is 2

Mere semantics

You said that there are more than two sexes. Intersex conditions are not actually identified by medical professionals as neither male nor female; in fact, intersex conditions are sex specific - every intersex condition (more respectfully known as disorders of sex development or DSD’s) occurs in members of one sex only, and not the other.

Do you know what “sex” refers to in humans? It refers to whether a person has gone down the developmental pathway that, all being well, results in a person producing sperm (males) or eggs (females). There are only two pathways, and only two sex cells that humans can create. Unless you know of a third?

But I have to say, I’m very much enjoying the broader, more informed, objective, knowledge base you’ve brought to this conversation. Truly enlightening.

[CEB]

That’s vague and unconvincing. Male people and female people exist, and are distinct from each other. Whatever legalistic view of the world you’re waffling about, males and females will continue to exist, and have differing needs. You haven’t yet offered a compelling reason as to why society shouldn’t be aware of the differing needs of male and female people, and have ignored several examples I’ve given as to why it’s important to continue to recognise sex differences.
But you have a postie that you like, which I guess works as that unbiased, broad, helicopter view you were talking about before…

Not wanting to be disrespectful so please take the question just as a question ,

Are there people who identify as Animal People
Could i for example identify as a Giraffe or an Elephant ,
Regardless of gender .

Or could I further identify as an atom/s for example a
Computer hard drive but not artificial intelligence but as
A physical embodiment of a computer ?

Its a fascinating topic of existence as in do we actually .

Google furries or fursonas then have a little lie down

[Currywurst and Chips]

I can't be the only one who had Keef down as a pronouns in the email signature (Ally) kinda guy

Glad I was wrong

Funnily enough, it was after I went on a bit of a rant here many years ago after Frank Maloney came out as trans & I had a go at people who were dubious about it that I had a bit of a “what am I banging on about here? I’m just saying what I think I should say” moment, & then found that absolutely nobody who thinks men literally become women (regardless of the mechanism by which they get there) can actually articulate what the hell they mean by it…

But the moment I realised quite how messed up it was was when I did a degree as a mature student and saw lesbians on my course called transphobic for saying they don’t do willy, and young, same sex attracted women with short hair questioned about when they were gonna just get their sh*t together and come out as trans. A bald male lecturer (not a biologist, believe it or not) said with a straight face that there was no such thing as biological sex.

Heh I remember that thread!

Yeah academia seems pretty lost on the issue although you do have to wonder how many of them believe it and aren't just towing the line based on pain of career destruction and being lambasted in the press. It's sad that universities aren't the beacon of free speech they historically have been.

[Dunners]

What I like best about the principle of self ID for gender is that, if it's accepted, then the same must apply for other characteristics. Such as race. And that's because there's more genetic variation on sexes than more subjective terms, such as race.

Just imagine the sh*ts and giggles we have in store when the wokey train arrives in that station.

[CEB]

Yeah. Basically the main reason I’m as up on it as I am is because being a good lefty, I tried really, really hard to see what I was missing because I really was instinctively leaning towards supporting a progressive cause and I don’t have anything against trans people as trans people. But if you look at it honestly and actually think the thoughts through, it’s impossible not to conclude that it’s batshit crazy and regressive. But then, I’m privileged to have a cis het black male postie, so I just can’t relate to the issue to the degree that Max can, I guess.

Who were you back then btw?

[Max B Gold]

A woman with a penis is a woman. It really isn’t difficult to understand.

It's all very confusing.

[Max B Gold]

And still the number is 2

Mere semantics

You said that there are more than two sexes. Intersex conditions are not actually identified by medical professionals as neither male nor female; in fact, intersex conditions are sex specific - every intersex condition (more respectfully known as disorders of sex development or DSD’s) occurs in members of one sex only, and not the other.

Do you know what “sex” refers to in humans? It refers to whether a person has gone down the developmental pathway that, all being well, results in a person producing sperm (males) or eggs (females). There are only two pathways, and only two sex cells that humans can create. Unless you know of a third?

But I have to say, I’m very much enjoying the broader, more informed, objective, knowledge base you’ve brought to this conversation. Truly enlightening.

Wicki says its a bit more complicated than that.

[Currywurst and Chips]

Yeah. Basically the main reason I’m as up on it as I am is because being a good lefty, I tried really, really hard to see what I was missing because I really was instinctively leaning towards supporting a progressive cause and I don’t have anything against trans people as trans people. But if you look at it honestly and actually think the thoughts through, it’s impossible not to conclude that it’s batshit crazy and regressive. But then, I’m privileged to have a cis het black male postie, so I just can’t relate to the issue to the degree that Max can, I guess.

Who were you back then btw?

Pie & Mash

Hopefully you don't feel dirty for agreeing with me.

[CEB]

Mere semantics

You said that there are more than two sexes. Intersex conditions are not actually identified by medical professionals as neither male nor female; in fact, intersex conditions are sex specific - every intersex condition (more respectfully known as disorders of sex development or DSD’s) occurs in members of one sex only, and not the other.

Do you know what “sex” refers to in humans? It refers to whether a person has gone down the developmental pathway that, all being well, results in a person producing sperm (males) or eggs (females). There are only two pathways, and only two sex cells that humans can create. Unless you know of a third?

But I have to say, I’m very much enjoying the broader, more informed, objective, knowledge base you’ve brought to this conversation. Truly enlightening.

Wicki says its a bit more complicated than that.

Yes, the means by which humans move along developmental pathways to become male and female are indeed complex. But there are only two pathways, and no third sex cell, so you’re still at 2, and I’m still waiting for the third sex, or however many you think there are. But it’s good to know that after confidently telling me that there are more than two sexes, you went to Wikipedia to try to back yourself up and couldn’t find anything more than “it’s complicated”

Here’s a challenge - I bet you £300 that I can correctly guess the sexes of your parents.

[CEB]

Yeah. Basically the main reason I’m as up on it as I am is because being a good lefty, I tried really, really hard to see what I was missing because I really was instinctively leaning towards supporting a progressive cause and I don’t have anything against trans people as trans people. But if you look at it honestly and actually think the thoughts through, it’s impossible not to conclude that it’s batshit crazy and regressive. But then, I’m privileged to have a cis het black male postie, so I just can’t relate to the issue to the degree that Max can, I guess.

Who were you back then btw?

Pie & Mash

Hopefully you don't feel dirty for agreeing with me.

I’m sure there’s plenty left for us to disagree about

[tuffers#1]

That’s vague and unconvincing. Male people and female people exist, and are distinct from each other. Whatever legalistic view of the world you’re waffling about, males and females will continue to exist, and have differing needs. You haven’t yet offered a compelling reason as to why society shouldn’t be aware of the differing needs of male and female people, and have ignored several examples I’ve given as to why it’s important to continue to recognise sex differences.
But you have a postie that you like, which I guess works as that unbiased, broad, helicopter view you were talking about before…

Not wanting to be disrespectful so please take the question just as a question ,

Are there people who identify as Animal People
Could i for example identify as a Giraffe or an Elephant ,
Regardless of gender .

Or could I further identify as an atom/s for example a
Computer hard drive but not artificial intelligence but as
A physical embodiment of a computer ?

Its a fascinating topic of existence as in do we actually .

Google furries or fursonas then have a little lie down

Im already laying down & they wouldnt want to dress up .

Ok one doesnt want to expand the debate .
No probs

[StockholmO]

A woman with a penis is a woman. It really isn’t difficult to understand.

It's all very confusing.

Here you go Max, this explains it all better.

[Max B Gold]

You said that there are more than two sexes. Intersex conditions are not actually identified by medical professionals as neither male nor female; in fact, intersex conditions are sex specific - every intersex condition (more respectfully known as disorders of sex development or DSD’s) occurs in members of one sex only, and not the other.

Do you know what “sex” refers to in humans? It refers to whether a person has gone down the developmental pathway that, all being well, results in a person producing sperm (males) or eggs (females). There are only two pathways, and only two sex cells that humans can create. Unless you know of a third?

But I have to say, I’m very much enjoying the broader, more informed, objective, knowledge base you’ve brought to this conversation. Truly enlightening.

Wicki says its a bit more complicated than that.

Yes, the means by which humans move along developmental pathways to become male and female are indeed complex. But there are only two pathways, and no third sex cell, so you’re still at 2, and I’m still waiting for the third sex, or however many you think there are. But it’s good to know that after confidently telling me that there are more than two sexes, you went to Wikipedia to try to back yourself up and couldn’t find anything more than “it’s complicated”

Here’s a challenge - I bet you £300 that I can correctly guess the sexes of your parents.

Hang on, now that I've actually read it there appears to be an academic on the Wicki who identifies no less than 5.

This is more complicated than you and Sausage Curry are making out. Youse sneaky snakes.

[CEB]

No, the “academic” is presumably mixing up developmental pathways and differing chromosomal make ups with “sex”. Which is why you won’t be able to name the third sex, or the fourth, or the fifth, and why you won’t be able to name the third, fourth or fifth gamete, and is why whatever amount is cited by your unnamed academic, there will remain two distinct groups of humans who have the ability to reproduce with each other.

You do know what sex *is*, right?

[CEB]

But hey, we’ve got you reading at least. Here - have a read of this once you’re bored of trying to find the third gamete. (Heads up - your postie won’t be producing a third gamete. She’ll be producing sperm cells or nowt at all )

https://janeclarejones.com/2018/09/26/t ... re-of-sex/

[Beradogs]

What I don’t understand is why we have to exclude trans males from female spaces? Women seem to want their cake and eat it. Dismantling brick by brick, men’s traditional refuge’s (if you don’t believe me look at the amount of women presenting, commentating on mens football now as an example) while wanting to keep their own social spaces on the basis of sex. One team one dream now ladies.

[Chocolate_brownie]

What I don’t understand is why we have to exclude trans males from female spaces? Women seem to want their cake and eat it. Dismantling brick by brick, men’s traditional refuge’s (if you don’t believe me look at the amount of women presenting, commentating on mens football now as an example) while wanting to keep their own social spaces on the basis of sex. One team one dream now ladies.

The reference to female commentators exposes this as a blatant WUM. Must try harder. You’re usually better than this.

[Max B Gold]

No, the “academic” is presumably mixing up developmental pathways and differing chromosomal make ups with “sex”. Which is why you won’t be able to name the third sex, or the fourth, or the fifth, and why you won’t be able to name the third, fourth or fifth gamete, and is why whatever amount is cited by your unnamed academic, there will remain two distinct groups of humans who have the ability to reproduce with each other.

You do know what sex *is*, right?

Thank you doctor.

[Ronnie Hotdogs]

What I don’t understand is why we have to exclude trans males from female spaces? Women seem to want their cake and eat it. Dismantling brick by brick, men’s traditional refuge’s (if you don’t believe me look at the amount of women presenting, commentating on mens football now as an example) while wanting to keep their own social spaces on the basis of sex. One team one dream now ladies.

The reference to female commentators exposes this as a blatant WUM. Must try harder. You’re usually better than this.

He’s not.

[tuffers#1]

Wicki says its a bit more complicated than that.

Yes, the means by which humans move along developmental pathways to become male and female are indeed complex. But there are only two pathways, and no third sex cell, so you’re still at 2, and I’m still waiting for the third sex, or however many you think there are. But it’s good to know that after confidently telling me that there are more than two sexes, you went to Wikipedia to try to back yourself up and couldn’t find anything more than “it’s complicated”

Here’s a challenge - I bet you £300 that I can correctly guess the sexes of your parents.

Hang on, now that I've actually read it there appears to be an academic on the Wicki who identifies no less than 5.

This is more complicated than you and Sausage Curry are making out. Youse sneaky snakes.

I bet 3 is Unicorn ?