The trans debate

[Max B Gold]

Oh Max. Are you not aware that the terms of the debate are LITERALLY that the trans rights movement is openly advocating for the fact that it should be self declared *identity*, not surgery, that defines whether someone is a woman or not?

No female people have penises. Lots of trans women do have penises. The trans rights movement argues that owning, and wanting to keep, a penis should be no barrier to accessing female spaces.
So, by your own words “I’m attracted to females so long as they don’t have a tadger”, you are excluding trans women from being regarded as women in the only context where their sex might be relevant to you - their role as a potential sexual partner when you were single - while thinking it disrespectful for female people to have the same criteria for excluding male people from female spaces.

I’m not ignoring increasing violence towards trans women - I’ve just told you that there have been zero murders of trans women in the uk in the last four years, and that I don’t think that a feminist perspective on debate around self ID is something that should be dismissed as something that shouldn’t be discussed on the basis that some men are violent.


I very much love that you don’t even understand the terms of the debate though, even after being a bit patronising about it.

Like I said it's not really a debate. But I see you have managed to analyse my Partridgesque comment to death. Its like I said, if the ones who have kept their willy want to be recognised as women it's no skin off my nose batter in.

As I said in my first reply to you, I’m only interested in good faith discussion. If your last word on the matter is “it’s no skin off my (male) nose how other male people wish to identify - it doesn’t bother me”, then I’m certainly happy to leave it there. Personally speaking, I reached my conclusions on this issue by listening to and reading the actual arguments. Maybe give it a go sometime - you never know, you might then be able to discuss the issue without looking like a monumental wally

Says the man who invented a quote and now says I fancy the postie. Oh dear.

[CEB]

Do you have any engagement with a solitary point raised, or not? It’ll save a lot of time if you just confirm either way, ta.

[Max B Gold]

Do you have any engagement with a solitary point raised, or not? It’ll save a lot of time if you just confirm either way, ta.

Of course. I support women's rights AND trans rights.

[CEB]

That’s very easy to do when you have no idea whatsoever of the terms of the debate that you insist isn’t happening, and have zero insight into the areas where the demands of those two groups clash.

Have you perhaps considered taking a helicopter view of the debate, so you can understand it more fully rather than relying on soundbites and that you like your postie?

[Long slender neck]

This very much seems to be a battle between women and trans people.

I just dont believe its possible to change sex, whilst I always will respect everyone, it feels like I'm being told that I must go along with something that defies science.

[Max B Gold]

This very much seems to be a battle between women and trans people.

I just dont believe its possible to change sex, whilst I always will respect everyone, it feels like I'm being told that I must go along with something that defies science.

From the little research I have done it appears that changing sex isn't the key for all trans people. It appears many trans women are happy to identify as trans women.

[Max B Gold]

That’s very easy to do when you have no idea whatsoever of the terms of the debate that you insist isn’t happening, and have zero insight into the areas where the demands of those two groups clash.

Have you perhaps considered taking a helicopter view of the debate, so you can understand it more fully rather than relying on soundbites and that you like your postie?

BS detector alarm sounding. Can't stop. Work to do. Must dash. Laters.

[Long slender neck]

I'm not sure it really even affects my life apart from having to hear about it during equality training and in the press and online.

But then I'm not a woman. Are women actually in danger?

[CEB]

This very much seems to be a battle between women and trans people.

I just dont believe its possible to change sex, whilst I always will respect everyone, it feels like I'm being told that I must go along with something that defies science.

Remember - trans activism doesn’t actually argue that people can change sex. What it actually argues is that we all have an innate gender identity that may be either that of a “woman”, “man”, “non binary”, or any number of other genders; that those innate gender identities do not have any criteria attached to them that can make it measurable whether or not someone has one of them, and that it’s that gender identity that determines whether society/law should see you as male or female, with sex being irrelevant to it.
Trans activism isn’t asking you to believe that someone can change sex: trans activism demands that you understand that a male with a penis is every bit as much a woman as anyone else, if that male declares that he is a woman.

[Currywurst and Chips]

This very much seems to be a battle between women and trans people.

I just dont believe its possible to change sex, whilst I always will respect everyone, it feels like I'm being told that I must go along with something that defies science.

Remember - trans activism doesn’t actually argue that people can change sex. What it actually argues is that we all have an innate gender identity that may be either that of a “woman”, “man”, “non binary”, or any number of other genders; that those innate gender identities do not have any criteria attached to them that can make it measurable whether or not someone has one of them, and that it’s that gender identity that determines whether society/law should see you as male or female, with sex being irrelevant to it.
Trans activism isn’t asking you to believe that someone can change sex: trans activism demands that you understand that a male with a penis is every bit as much a woman as anyone else, if that male declares that he is a woman.

What could possibly going wrong

[Max B Gold]

This very much seems to be a battle between women and trans people.

I just dont believe its possible to change sex, whilst I always will respect everyone, it feels like I'm being told that I must go along with something that defies science.

Remember - trans activism doesn’t actually argue that people can change sex. What it actually argues is that we all have an innate gender identity that may be either that of a “woman”, “man”, “non binary”, or any number of other genders; that those innate gender identities do not have any criteria attached to them that can make it measurable whether or not someone has one of them, and that it’s that gender identity that determines whether society/law should see you as male or female, with sex being irrelevant to it.
Trans activism isn’t asking you to believe that someone can change sex: trans activism demands that you understand that a male with a penis is every bit as much a woman as anyone else, if that male declares that he is a woman.

And why is that so difficult to accept?

[CEB]

I'm not sure it really even affects my life apart from having to hear about it during equality training and in the press and online.

But then I'm not a woman. Are women actually in danger?

Danger isn’t the relevant issue here - the issue is whether female people have the right to organise politically and socially *as* female people, in the absence of male people, on the basis that female people have interests that are specific to female people.

Male people do statistically pose a threat to women, and as trans women are male, they remain members of the sex class who pose a statistical threat to women (and retain male patterns of offending)

Also, when you see the stories, a few of which are posted here, where a “woman” is charged with a crime, where the story describes the woman using female pronouns, and the end of the story refers to “exposing her penis” or similar phrasing, currently the police would record that as a female crime on the basis of the person’s stated gender identity, and that’s then in crime statistics as a female crime (with no information recorded as to it being a male identifying as female). So one harm is that if we don’t delineate this stuff clearly, male crimes are recorded as female. I don’t think it’s controversial to imagine that female people might object to that…

[CEB]

This very much seems to be a battle between women and trans people.

I just dont believe its possible to change sex, whilst I always will respect everyone, it feels like I'm being told that I must go along with something that defies science.

Remember - trans activism doesn’t actually argue that people can change sex. What it actually argues is that we all have an innate gender identity that may be either that of a “woman”, “man”, “non binary”, or any number of other genders; that those innate gender identities do not have any criteria attached to them that can make it measurable whether or not someone has one of them, and that it’s that gender identity that determines whether society/law should see you as male or female, with sex being irrelevant to it.
Trans activism isn’t asking you to believe that someone can change sex: trans activism demands that you understand that a male with a penis is every bit as much a woman as anyone else, if that male declares that he is a woman.

And why is that so difficult to accept?

Sorry, but above you already said that you only see people as female if they don’t have a penis, so you might want to catch up a bit before proceeding. But the main reason it’s unacceptable is that there are tangible differences between male people and female people that don’t disappear if you pretend that those categories don’t exist, so when you overwrite the concept of sex with the concept of gender identity, you make it impossible to organise society based on the needs of the sexes as distinct from each other.

I mean, this is quite simple stuff. The only difficult thing is unpacking the bullshit before maintaining that sex exists and matters…

[Long slender neck]

Why is it so important to be recognised as 'real' women?

[Max B Gold]

Remember - trans activism doesn’t actually argue that people can change sex. What it actually argues is that we all have an innate gender identity that may be either that of a “woman”, “man”, “non binary”, or any number of other genders; that those innate gender identities do not have any criteria attached to them that can make it measurable whether or not someone has one of them, and that it’s that gender identity that determines whether society/law should see you as male or female, with sex being irrelevant to it.
Trans activism isn’t asking you to believe that someone can change sex: trans activism demands that you understand that a male with a penis is every bit as much a woman as anyone else, if that male declares that he is a woman.

And why is that so difficult to accept?

Sorry, but above you already said that you only see people as female if they don’t have a penis, so you might want to catch up a bit before proceeding. But the main reason it’s unacceptable is that there are tangible differences between male people and female people that don’t disappear if you pretend that those categories don’t exist, so when you overwrite the concept of sex with the concept of gender identity, you make it impossible to organise society based on the needs of the sexes as distinct from each other.

I mean, this is quite simple stuff. The only difficult thing is unpacking the bullshit before maintaining that sex exists and matters…

I didn't say what you said I said in your opening sentence. What i said was a bit more nuanced than that but you were distracted by the use of the word tadger. And went off on one. HTH.

Too much is made of differences in this world already. Your differences are based on a legalistic view of the world . Like I said above the world has moved on. Maybe we all need to as well.

[CEB]

That’s vague and unconvincing. Male people and female people exist, and are distinct from each other. Whatever legalistic view of the world you’re waffling about, males and females will continue to exist, and have differing needs. You haven’t yet offered a compelling reason as to why society shouldn’t be aware of the differing needs of male and female people, and have ignored several examples I’ve given as to why it’s important to continue to recognise sex differences.
But you have a postie that you like, which I guess works as that unbiased, broad, helicopter view you were talking about before…

[Story of O]

It’s not a legalistic view, it’s a medical fact

[Max B Gold]

That’s vague and unconvincing. Male people and female people exist, and are distinct from each other. Whatever legalistic view of the world you’re waffling about, males and females will continue to exist, and have differing needs. You haven’t yet offered a compelling reason as to why society shouldn’t be aware of the differing needs of male and female people, and have ignored several examples I’ve given as to why it’s important to continue to recognise sex differences.
But you have a postie that you like, which I guess works as that unbiased, broad, helicopter view you were talking about before…

I'm not arguing that society shouldn't be aware of the different needs of men and women. Therefore, I don't need to present compelling reasons.

We're going round in circles. You have your deeply entrenched position on this. I in the other hand remain open minded.

[Max B Gold]

It’s not a legalistic view, it’s a medical fact

There are more than two sexes. Medical FACT

[CEB]

You just asked me why I would find it so hard to accept a society organised on the basis that we now use the terms “man””woman”, “male” and “female” to describe a self reported innate gender identity rather than sex. Now apparently you recognise that there are sex differences. There’s only one person going round in circles here.
It’s very easy to be “entrenched” when the opposing view is so poorly argued.

[CEB]

It’s not a legalistic view, it’s a medical fact

There are more than two sexes. Medical FACT

Cool, name a sex in humans other than male or female.

[Dunners]

It’s not a legalistic view, it’s a medical fact

There are more than two sexes. Medical FACT

Cool, name a sex in humans other than male or female.

Are any of these initials another sex?

"2SLGBTQQIA+"

[CEB]

I think that stands for Two Spirit, lesbian, gay, bi, trans, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual +anyone else. So no, no more sexes, just the two

[Currywurst and Chips]

I can't be the only one who had Keef down as a pronouns in the email signature (Ally) kinda guy

Glad I was wrong

[Max B Gold]

I think that stands for Two Spirit, lesbian, gay, bi, trans, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual +anyone else. So no, no more sexes, just the two

Intersex is a medical condition and is therefore identified by the profession as not being either male or female.