Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:57 pm**

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:48 pm
Jeanluc wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:18 pm The greed of the rail unions never ceases to amaze me. The median salary of rail workers is £44,000, 70 per cent above the average yet still they bully for more.

Where's that "median salary" of £44K come from? I'm betting that there are many more of the "below average paid" workers within the industry. I look forward to you providing a valid source for that figure.

It's actually £46,753

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61840077.amp

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:57 pm**

To Bonio, the median figure comes from the ONS and takes four categories of workers, adds them up and divides by four:
• Rail travel assistants - £33,310 - includes ticket collectors, guards and information staff
• Rail construction and maintenance operatives - £34,998 - they lay and repair tracks
• Rail transport operatives - £48,750 - includes signallers and drivers' assistants
• Train and tram drivers - £59,189
This produces a median figure (£43,747) across everybody in those four categories along with a fifth - workers who build and repair engines and carriages. Their median salary is £46,753.

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:59 pm**

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:57 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:48 pm
Jeanluc wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:18 pm The greed of the rail unions never ceases to amaze me. The median salary of rail workers is £44,000, 70 per cent above the average yet still they bully for more.

Where's that "median salary" of £44K come from? I'm betting that there are many more of the "below average paid" workers within the industry. I look forward to you providing a valid source for that figure.
It's actually £46,753

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61840077.amp

"It has also produced a median figure excluding train drivers - who are not involved in the RMT strike - of £36,800."

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:03 pm**

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:59 pm
Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:57 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:48 pm

Where's that "median salary" of £44K come from? I'm betting that there are many more of the "below average paid" workers within the industry. I look forward to you providing a valid source for that figure.
It's actually £46,753

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61840077.amp
"It has also produced a median figure excluding train drivers - who are not involved in the RMT strike - of £36,800."

I was providing the number asked for

But yes, the median number goes down when you exclude the highest earners, shockingly

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:07 pm**

I see that Dianne Abbot is on the frontline defending the Railworkers right to strike. A pity she did not show the same kind of support for the State Education system when it came to the education of her child.

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:09 pm**

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:03 pm
StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:59 pm
Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:57 pm

It's actually £46,753

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61840077.amp
"It has also produced a median figure excluding train drivers - who are not involved in the RMT strike - of £36,800."
I was providing the number asked for

But yes, the median number goes down when you exclude the highest earners, shockingly

The highest earners are the managers. The network rail chief gets £600k a year.

In other news amongst the railway workers the higher paid staff are drivers who are mostly members of ASLEF who are not part of this RMT dispute. # confusedasfuck

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:11 pm**

Jeanluc wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:57 pm To Bonio, the median figure comes from the ONS and takes four categories of workers, adds them up and divides by four:
• Rail travel assistants - £33,310 - includes ticket collectors, guards and information staff
• Rail construction and maintenance operatives - £34,998 - they lay and repair tracks
• Rail transport operatives - £48,750 - includes signallers and drivers' assistants
• Train and tram drivers - £59,189
This produces a median figure (£43,747) across everybody in those four categories along with a fifth - workers who build and repair engines and carriages. Their median salary is £46,753.

That doesn't work statistically. I thought that was how you'd calculated it but that only works if there are equal numbers of workers in each pay bracket. You can't just add the 4 pay brackets up and divide by 4. That tells you nothing of consequence. You need to know how many workers are in each group, multiply that number by the wage for that group - then divide the total amount, for all 4 groups, by the total numbers of workers.

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:14 pm**

Give it to Jabo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:07 pm I see that Dianne Abbot is on the frontline defending the Railworkers right to strike. A pity she did not show the same kind of support for the State Education system when it came to the education of her child.

Hehehe - if in doubt, if you have no other argument, throw Diane Abbotts name into the pot. Simple and (in)effective.

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:18 pm**

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:11 pm
Jeanluc wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:57 pm To Bonio, the median figure comes from the ONS and takes four categories of workers, adds them up and divides by four:
• Rail travel assistants - £33,310 - includes ticket collectors, guards and information staff
• Rail construction and maintenance operatives - £34,998 - they lay and repair tracks
• Rail transport operatives - £48,750 - includes signallers and drivers' assistants
• Train and tram drivers - £59,189
This produces a median figure (£43,747) across everybody in those four categories along with a fifth - workers who build and repair engines and carriages. Their median salary is £46,753.
That doesn't work statistically. I thought that was how you'd calculated it but that only works if there are equal numbers of workers in each pay bracket. You can't just add the 4 pay brackets up and divide by 4. That tells you nothing of consequence. You need to know how many workers are in each group, multiply that number by the wage for that group - then divide the total amount, for all 4 groups, by the total numbers of workers.

Correct. You also need to exclude workers who are not involved in this dispute.

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:31 pm**

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:57 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:48 pm
Jeanluc wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:18 pm The greed of the rail unions never ceases to amaze me. The median salary of rail workers is £44,000, 70 per cent above the average yet still they bully for more.

Where's that "median salary" of £44K come from? I'm betting that there are many more of the "below average paid" workers within the industry. I look forward to you providing a valid source for that figure.
It's actually £46,753

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61840077.amp

Nope. The BBC - God bless'em - has taken the numbers at face value from the Government. Their calculation is to add the median pay for all 5 groups and divide by 5. This gives a result of £44K per worker. This is bullsh-it. As per my other post you need to calculate this by including how many workers fall into which pay band. Max's point is also correct - if you're looking at the RMT then don't include the vast majority of drivers.

In Summary, Shapps' quoting £44k average per worker is BS. The BBC stating this is BS. Currywurst stating this is BS. It's simple maths to prove this.

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:37 pm**

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:57 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:48 pm
Jeanluc wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:18 pm The greed of the rail unions never ceases to amaze me. The median salary of rail workers is £44,000, 70 per cent above the average yet still they bully for more.

Where's that "median salary" of £44K come from? I'm betting that there are many more of the "below average paid" workers within the industry. I look forward to you providing a valid source for that figure.
It's actually £46,753

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61840077.amp

That’s not what they’re saying.

I like the bit in that article where shapps says they shouldn’t be striking because they earn so much more than nurses and care workers.

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:44 pm**

George M wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:37 am
tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:36 am
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:33 pm How long should anyone- not just rail workers- put up with soaring inflation before expecting a raise?
wasnt George banned ?
What for ? Disagreeing with you

Nope , for other things

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:48 pm**

The BBC article is riddled with errors. Firstly they state an inflated average pay based on an inability to do basic maths. Then they state that the "median pay for all employees in the UK" is £25,971. This amount includes part time workers which radically reduces the amount.

So falsely inflate the average RMT wage, then falsely state the UK average by incorporating part-timers. Terrible, lazy reporting, at best.

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:51 pm**

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:03 pm
StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:59 pm
Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:57 pm

It's actually £46,753

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61840077.amp
"It has also produced a median figure excluding train drivers - who are not involved in the RMT strike - of £36,800."
I was providing the number asked for

But yes, the median number goes down when you exclude the highest earners, shockingly

It also takes off the lowest earners to get a clear median .It would far more accurate to work out the mean number also

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:52 pm**

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:31 pm
Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:57 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:48 pm

Where's that "median salary" of £44K come from? I'm betting that there are many more of the "below average paid" workers within the industry. I look forward to you providing a valid source for that figure.
It's actually £46,753

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61840077.amp
Nope. The BBC - God bless'em - has taken the numbers at face value from the Government. Their calculation is to add the median pay for all 5 groups and divide by 5. This gives a result of £44K per worker. This is bullsh-it. As per my other post you need to calculate this by including how many workers fall into which pay band. Max's point is also correct - if you're looking at the RMT then don't include the vast majority of drivers.

In Summary, Shapps' quoting £44k average per worker is BS. The BBC stating this is BS. Currywurst stating this is BS. It's simple maths to prove this.

Then do it, until then I'll believe the ONS

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:56 pm**

It’s not a case of belief. Bonio has just walked you through the flaw in their calculation, it’s been demonstrated.

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:25 pm**

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:48 pm The BBC article is riddled with errors. Firstly they state an inflated average pay based on an inability to do basic maths. Then they state that the "median pay for all employees in the UK" is £25,971. This amount includes part time workers which radically reduces the amount.

So falsely inflate the average RMT wage, then falsely state the UK average by incorporating part-timers. Terrible, lazy reporting, at best.

Their calcs are so flawed it makes you wonder if it's deliberate...

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:30 pm**

It's all a big distraction from the BBC on behalf of the Tories anyway.

By sparking a debate about pay based on limited figures they can play the "they've got more than you" divide and rule tactic that capitalists have always played to keep the proletarian fighting each other

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:43 pm**

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:30 pm It's all a big distraction from the BBC on behalf of the Tories anyway.

By sparking a debate about pay based on limited figures they can play the "they've got more than you" divide and rule tactic that capitalists have always played to keep the proletarian fighting each other

Yes, but clearly it’s better for the Government to fiddle the numbers first. Just one more stack of lies to add to the pile.

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:06 pm**

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:14 pm
Give it to Jabo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:07 pm I see that Dianne Abbot is on the frontline defending the Railworkers right to strike. A pity she did not show the same kind of support for the State Education system when it came to the education of her child.
Hehehe - if in doubt, if you have no other argument, throw Diane Abbotts name into the pot. Simple and (in)effective.

Does this mean you agree with her decision to educate her son privately?

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:11 pm**

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:18 pm**

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:30 pm
By sparking a debate about pay based on limited figures they can play the "they've got more than you" divide and rule tactic that capitalists have always played to keep the proletarian fighting each other

OMG, do you think that's what they're doing? Why has no one realised this before?

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:20 pm**

Why on earth are they using the median, anyway?

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:38 pm**

Also, so what if all RMT members were earning at or above median salary? If we wish to live in a free market economy then surely that must mean it's okay for workers utilise market forces to get the best possible return for their labour. Right?

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:26 pm**

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:38 pm Also, so what if all RMT members were earning at or above median salary? If we wish to live in a free market economy then surely that must mean it's okay for workers utilise market forces to get the best possible return for their labour. Right?

Correct. Long live the levelling up effect of the invisible hand of the free market

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