Independent Leyton Orient Forum

gshaw wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:15 pm

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:16 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:27 am It's not about the short term cash windfall it's the changes the big 6 will have the power to impose afterwards.

Don't want B teams... tough
Don't want to lose your academy players for nothing... tough
Don't want reduced promotion spots to the Prem... tough

And so on. Basically giving the future of the game away, the big clubs making a very cynical move here. Travis seems to have fallen for it hook line and sinker.

The only bit of it I agree with is dropping the pointless cups. No one really cares for the EFL Cup or Trophy tbh. However losing FA Cup replays is bad for lower league clubs and that's probably here to stay now.

The decision on B teams isn't down to the PL team vote. Neither is the academy players. The PL was originally 18 teams. The Bundesliga is 18 with a playoff game.

But under their new powers it could be. That's the point.

As for the TV money is anyone that naive to believe that having got the vote powers on the promise of a sizeable chunk of EPL TV money the big clubs couldn't then vote to reduce it shortly afterwards?

Let's be blunt here, this isn't a move done out of goodwill; it's a cynical power grab aimed at furthering the ambitions of a select few.

The rest of the teams should call their ("big" clubs) bluff and accept the other proposals minus the voting structure changes and see the reaction.

No it couldn't. The FA and EFL clubs have to agree to those changes to the EFL.

It's not a move out of goodwil? What is it? They've had Matt Hancock telling the PL players to "do their bit". They've had EFL club supporters and Chairmen saying the PL have to do more financially. They decide to do something more financially and now it's a power grab?

What actual evidence do you have for this being a "power grab"? Nothing. It's all based on paranoia.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:33 pm Interesting note from the FA.

https://www.thefa.com/news/2020/oct/13/ ... cil-131020

The penultimate paragraph could be taken as a veiled threat to the 6 (and Parry) about whether the FA will allow them to get away without consequences.

Let’s continue to work together to determine what is best for English football, with full dialogue between all key stakeholders. However, there is more to our game than economics. Change must benefit clubs, fans and players; not just selective balance sheets. In these difficult times unity, transparency and common purpose must override the interests of the few.

Oh right. Is Greg Clarke stupid as well? Or does he understand that "big 6" PL clubs aren't making a decision for the other 86?

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:36 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:15 pm

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:16 pm
The decision on B teams isn't down to the PL team vote. Neither is the academy players. The PL was originally 18 teams. The Bundesliga is 18 with a playoff game.

But under their new powers it could be. That's the point.

As for the TV money is anyone that naive to believe that having got the vote powers on the promise of a sizeable chunk of EPL TV money the big clubs couldn't then vote to reduce it shortly afterwards?

Let's be blunt here, this isn't a move done out of goodwill; it's a cynical power grab aimed at furthering the ambitions of a select few.

The rest of the teams should call their ("big" clubs) bluff and accept the other proposals minus the voting structure changes and see the reaction.

No it couldn't. The FA and EFL clubs have to agree to those changes to the EFL.

It's not a move out of goodwil? What is it? They've had Matt Hancock telling the PL players to "do their bit". They've had EFL club supporters and Chairmen saying the PL have to do more financially. They decide to do something more financially and now it's a power grab?

What actual evidence do you have for this being a "power grab"? Nothing. It's all based on paranoia.

Comes back to the point someone else already made, if it's not a power grab why ask for changes to the voting rights to... well... you know get more power?

Take that out and some proposals are sensible (scrapping pointless cups for example), others trying to benefit existing EPL clubs like the play-offs idea that robs the Championship clubs of promotion to give the worst performing Prem side another shot.

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:39 pm

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:33 pm Interesting note from the FA.

https://www.thefa.com/news/2020/oct/13/ ... cil-131020

The penultimate paragraph could be taken as a veiled threat to the 6 (and Parry) about whether the FA will allow them to get away without consequences.

Let’s continue to work together to determine what is best for English football, with full dialogue between all key stakeholders. However, there is more to our game than economics. Change must benefit clubs, fans and players; not just selective balance sheets. In these difficult times unity, transparency and common purpose must override the interests of the few.

Oh right. Is Greg Clarke stupid as well? Or does he understand that "big 6" PL clubs aren't making a decision for the other 86?

You don't know what "penultimate" means, now, do you?

gshaw wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:44 pm

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:36 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:15 pm

But under their new powers it could be. That's the point.

As for the TV money is anyone that naive to believe that having got the vote powers on the promise of a sizeable chunk of EPL TV money the big clubs couldn't then vote to reduce it shortly afterwards?

Let's be blunt here, this isn't a move done out of goodwill; it's a cynical power grab aimed at furthering the ambitions of a select few.

The rest of the teams should call their ("big" clubs) bluff and accept the other proposals minus the voting structure changes and see the reaction.

No it couldn't. The FA and EFL clubs have to agree to those changes to the EFL.

It's not a move out of goodwil? What is it? They've had Matt Hancock telling the PL players to "do their bit". They've had EFL club supporters and Chairmen saying the PL have to do more financially. They decide to do something more financially and now it's a power grab?

What actual evidence do you have for this being a "power grab"? Nothing. It's all based on paranoia.

Comes back to the point someone else already made, if it's not a power grab why ask for changes to the voting rights to... well... you know get more power?

Take that out and some proposals are sensible (scrapping pointless cups for example), others trying to benefit existing EPL clubs like the play-offs idea that robs the Championship clubs of promotion to give the worst performing Prem side another shot.

Yeah, to have more of a say in the PL, along with the other longest serving PL clubs. They will still be there in 10 years whilst other teams who come and go get an equal say. Something Orient fans don't actually care about but they're throwing "power grab around" like Liverpool are coming to rob them blind.

That proposal is exactly what they do in Germany. Why is it fair that a team who finishes a point behind second and a team who finishes 15 points behind them get the same chance to get promotion?

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:54 pm

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:39 pm

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:33 pm Interesting note from the FA.

https://www.thefa.com/news/2020/oct/13/ ... cil-131020

The penultimate paragraph could be taken as a veiled threat to the 6 (and Parry) about whether the FA will allow them to get away without consequences.

Let’s continue to work together to determine what is best for English football, with full dialogue between all key stakeholders. However, there is more to our game than economics. Change must benefit clubs, fans and players; not just selective balance sheets. In these difficult times unity, transparency and common purpose must override the interests of the few.

Oh right. Is Greg Clarke stupid as well? Or does he understand that "big 6" PL clubs aren't making a decision for the other 86?

You don't know what "penultimate" means, now, do you?

Doesn't matter about the one before, the last paragraph clearly states who will be deciding on this and it isn't just United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea and City.

The penultimate paragraph is alluding to a European Super League type thing. Something the top clubs would obviously want to be a part of and Leyton Orient should have no say on what those teams decide to do instead of playing the League Cup.

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:57 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:44 pm

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:36 pm
No it couldn't. The FA and EFL clubs have to agree to those changes to the EFL.

It's not a move out of goodwil? What is it? They've had Matt Hancock telling the PL players to "do their bit". They've had EFL club supporters and Chairmen saying the PL have to do more financially. They decide to do something more financially and now it's a power grab?

What actual evidence do you have for this being a "power grab"? Nothing. It's all based on paranoia.

Comes back to the point someone else already made, if it's not a power grab why ask for changes to the voting rights to... well... you know get more power?

Take that out and some proposals are sensible (scrapping pointless cups for example), others trying to benefit existing EPL clubs like the play-offs idea that robs the Championship clubs of promotion to give the worst performing Prem side another shot.

Yeah, to have more of a say in the PL, along with the other longest serving PL clubs. They will still be there in 10 years whilst other teams who come and go get an equal say. Something Orient fans don't actually care about but they're throwing "power grab around" like Liverpool are coming to rob them blind.

That proposal is exactly what they do in Germany. Why is it fair that a team who finishes a point behind second and a team who finishes 15 points behind them get the same chance to get promotion?

Why should the side that's done badly enough over the course of the season to end in the relegation spots get a reprieve and able to use their bigger, more expensive squad against the side from level below who earned their promotion against their rivals in the same league?

What happens in the Prem trickles down, so let's say the big clubs decide this and pass it off by 2/3 majority:

- B teams are vital to youth development and must be allowed into EFL to maintain TV money
- revenue share as signed off isn't financially viable so going to have to cut it down to 5% instead of 25%
- only one club to be relegated from Prem each season
- Prem sides to only enter FA Cup from 4th round / able to opt out in favour of commercial friendlies "39th" game. Replays to remain canned permanently

The above is taken from ideas they've been pushing for in the past but been prevented from going full crazy. This proposal allows them the opening they need to make football a closed shop for a small subset of clubs who were in the right place at the right time to sign the document.

Don't take my word for it, quoted from the BBC article...

Angered by the way the story broke without their blessing, the Premier League has already given it short shrift, viewing this as a regrettable power-grab. In fact one well-placed Premier League source has described it as a "takeover attempt, rather than a rescue package".

Having read a very brief bullet point summary of the proposed plans (which is was ready to vehemently oppose) I have to say that most of them appear pretty reasonable and even sensible.

If they do scrap the league cup I’d like them to revert the LDV Johnston Paint Leasing.com trophy back to how it used to be without the u23 teams in it.

gshaw wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:28 pm

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:57 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:44 pm

Comes back to the point someone else already made, if it's not a power grab why ask for changes to the voting rights to... well... you know get more power?

Take that out and some proposals are sensible (scrapping pointless cups for example), others trying to benefit existing EPL clubs like the play-offs idea that robs the Championship clubs of promotion to give the worst performing Prem side another shot.

Yeah, to have more of a say in the PL, along with the other longest serving PL clubs. They will still be there in 10 years whilst other teams who come and go get an equal say. Something Orient fans don't actually care about but they're throwing "power grab around" like Liverpool are coming to rob them blind.

That proposal is exactly what they do in Germany. Why is it fair that a team who finishes a point behind second and a team who finishes 15 points behind them get the same chance to get promotion?

Why should the side that's done badly enough over the course of the season to end in the relegation spots get a reprieve and able to use their bigger, more expensive squad against the side from level below who earned their promotion against their rivals in the same league?

What happens in the Prem trickles down, so let's say the big clubs decide this and pass it off by 2/3 majority:

- B teams are vital to youth development and must be allowed into EFL to maintain TV money
- revenue share as signed off isn't financially viable so going to have to cut it down to 5% instead of 25%
- only one club to be relegated from Prem each season
- Prem sides to only enter FA Cup from 4th round / able to opt out in favour of commercial friendlies "39th" game. Replays to remain canned permanently

The above is taken from ideas they've been pushing for in the past but been prevented from going full crazy. This proposal allows them the opening they need to make football a closed shop for a small subset of clubs who were in the right place at the right time to sign the document.

Don't take my word for it, quoted from the BBC article...

Angered by the way the story broke without their blessing, the Premier League has already given it short shrift, viewing this as a regrettable power-grab. In fact one well-placed Premier League source has described it as a "takeover attempt, rather than a rescue package".

I get that view. I'm not saying it's ideal but a team finishing 6th, so far behind 3rd should not be put in a position to get promoted. The team finishing 16th wouldn't be in the relegation zone, it's just into a playoff spot.

You're just arguing things they can do right now based your logic and they wouldn't need to give any money to anyone. B teams don't just benefit the "big 6". There are other teams who have excellent academies that would probably like it. B teams haven't even been mentioned. You're all flapping about like it's a big threat to English football and the "big 6" are going to wipe out the other 86 clubs. It just isn't going to happen. Say the EFL clubs accept some of the proposals and sign the deal for 5 years. I'll tell you exactly what happens if the PL say at the end of that deal "to keep the same funding, you have to allow B teams", the other 74 teams in the football league will tell them to f*** off because they all have to vote on it and will easily vote them down. You talk about a power grab but 86 vs 6 or 83 vs 9 seems like the power is heavily weighted against the PL teams when it comes to voting.

As for the 1 team being relegated, there's no way on earth that will happen. It makes zero sense commercially for a start.

A team could have a congested Christmas period, draw the 3rd round of the FA cup, have a replay, they have to play 2 legs in the league cup semi final, they'll play their usual league games and then they'll have to play a 4th round FA cup game on top of that if they win their replay. That's a hell of a lot of football to play from Christmas until the end of January. Whether it's a break at some point or a change in the calendar, it's unsustainable.

All sorts of ideas have been floated over the years that get nowhere. You're getting into a flap based on your paranoia and worries. Ask questions, don't accuse.

Won't quote your reply in its entirety as the thread is going to get a bit unreadable otherwise but you make some fair points. To me this has Trojan horse written all over it, do you believe the big 6 really care for the future of the likes of Orient and Walsall? I certainly don't and that's why I view this deal with much skepticism.

Would leave proposal well alone. Top 6 have all the power and will vote to destroy everything that is not in their favour or for their benefit. These yanks who are behind this are brought up on closed shop sport franchises. They’re also in no way altruistic, they are just power grabbing opportunist chancers putting this through when clubs are desperate. They are now threatening to pull away into a super league of some sort of their own, allegedly, if they don’t get their way. Well good luck with that, close the door on the way out.

This is a major moment for English football. Hopefully and most probably the EFL won’t get the opportunity to take their fools gold anyway . ( no way will the prem league clubs vote this in and add to this the fa have the golden share to over rule all of it).

Parry should do the decent thing and resign now.

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:26 am

EH16 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:51 am

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:08 am
It’s the same system as they have in Germany. How does it prevent teams like Leicester winning the league? How does it stop teams like you mentioned from ‘challeneging the elite’?

Without the likes of United and Liverpool, there wouldn’t be the money there is in the PL.

That's exactly the point, it IS the money. And the more the big teams have, the harder it is for others to challenge. If you can get beyond the standard inane response of 'Scottish football is rubbish anyway' you only need to look at how Rangers and Celtic have used their financial muscle for decades now to dominate. It doesn't PREVENT other teams from winning things it DOES make it very difficult

Right, so you don’t want a £250m lump sump and 25% of any new tv deal?

It's actually a £250m LOAN to the EFL clubs not a one off payment or lump sum.

The loan repayments to the Premier League will be deducted from the 25% of any new TV deal.

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:27 pm

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:26 am

EH16 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:51 am

That's exactly the point, it IS the money. And the more the big teams have, the harder it is for others to challenge. If you can get beyond the standard inane response of 'Scottish football is rubbish anyway' you only need to look at how Rangers and Celtic have used their financial muscle for decades now to dominate. It doesn't PREVENT other teams from winning things it DOES make it very difficult

Right, so you don’t want a £250m lump sump and 25% of any new tv deal?

It's actually a £250m LOAN to the EFL clubs not a one off payment or lump sum.

The loan repayments to the Premier League will be deducted from the 25% of any new TV deal.

Very sneaky, Barry Hearn would be proud of such shenanigans

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:27 pm

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:26 am

EH16 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:51 am

That's exactly the point, it IS the money. And the more the big teams have, the harder it is for others to challenge. If you can get beyond the standard inane response of 'Scottish football is rubbish anyway' you only need to look at how Rangers and Celtic have used their financial muscle for decades now to dominate. It doesn't PREVENT other teams from winning things it DOES make it very difficult

Right, so you don’t want a £250m lump sump and 25% of any new tv deal?

It's actually a £250m LOAN to the EFL clubs not a one off payment or lump sum.

The loan repayments to the Premier League will be deducted from the 25% of any new TV deal.

What happens if that new TV deal is much smaller in years to come, which it will be. Some other rule and regulation will be introduced which could be devastating for some EFL clubs.
It's like a 20 year old virgin saying you can be my first but you have to get past my six big brothers first.
In other words it looks lovely and it's what you dream of but theres always a catch.
Is that clean enough

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:27 pm

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:26 am

EH16 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:51 am

That's exactly the point, it IS the money. And the more the big teams have, the harder it is for others to challenge. If you can get beyond the standard inane response of 'Scottish football is rubbish anyway' you only need to look at how Rangers and Celtic have used their financial muscle for decades now to dominate. It doesn't PREVENT other teams from winning things it DOES make it very difficult

Right, so you don’t want a £250m lump sump and 25% of any new tv deal?

It's actually a £250m LOAN to the EFL clubs not a one off payment or lump sum.

The loan repayments to the Premier League will be deducted from the 25% of any new TV deal.

Where does it say that?

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:27 pm

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:26 am Right, so you don’t want a £250m lump sump and 25% of any new tv deal?

It's actually a £250m LOAN to the EFL clubs not a one off payment or lump sum.

The loan repayments to the Premier League will be deducted from the 25% of any new TV deal.

As well as the £250m advance being deducted from future payments, a chunk of the international rights will in future belong to individual PL clubs. So it's 25% of the revenue from a smaller deal.

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:45 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:07 am

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:15 am

Intersting

Scrapping the League Cup was the most appealing part of the package to me. The Charity Shield is a one-off glorified friendly so mehhh

We play far too much football in this country at the top level and having two domestic cups doesn't make sense. Hopefully scrapping it might lead to the FA Cup regaining some of its lost prestige. The League Cup itself is a devalued tournament anyway that none of the top teams take seriously but is invariably won by one of the "Big 6's" reserve teams.

Correct on all counts.

How anyone can defend the Charity Shield as being remotely interesting is beyond me.

It’s a day out on the p*ss with your mates at Wembley and a curtain raiser for the season. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it.

I don’t fella as it is a waste of time and meaningless.

Surprised you find it so captivating.

Project big picture rejected, EFL bailout approved (not by everyone)

https://www.skysports.com/football/news ... nd-2-clubs

Bailout is a strong word. Loans which just put off the inevitable for some when they have to pay it back one day.

So Liverpool and Manchester United rejected their own idea.

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:39 pm

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:27 pm

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:26 am
Right, so you don’t want a £250m lump sump and 25% of any new tv deal?

It's actually a £250m LOAN to the EFL clubs not a one off payment or lump sum.

The loan repayments to the Premier League will be deducted from the 25% of any new TV deal.

Where does it say that?

Disoriented wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:14 am

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:45 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:07 am

Correct on all counts.

How anyone can defend the Charity Shield as being remotely interesting is beyond me.

It’s a day out on the p*ss with your mates at Wembley and a curtain raiser for the season. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it.

I don’t fella as it is a waste of time and meaningless.

Surprised you find it so captivating.

Orient have never been, that's why you don't.

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:58 pm

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:39 pm

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:27 pm
It's actually a £250m LOAN to the EFL clubs not a one off payment or lump sum.

The loan repayments to the Premier League will be deducted from the 25% of any new TV deal.

Where does it say that?

Cheers

Seems to me like it's a lump sum upfront rather than getting it every year and then the 25% will be front further tv rights deals. You made it sounds like it was going to be repaid in the future. I've always been in favour of individual tv rights so I can watch every game for my team. I'm not arsed about Southampton vs Burnley.

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:08 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:14 am

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:45 pm
It’s a day out on the p*ss with your mates at Wembley and a curtain raiser for the season. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it.

I don’t fella as it is a waste of time and meaningless.

Surprised you find it so captivating.

Orient have never been, that's why you don't.

Simplistic and wrong.

Disoriented wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:39 pm

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:08 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:14 am

I don’t fella as it is a waste of time and meaningless.

Surprised you find it so captivating.

Orient have never been, that's why you don't.

Simplistic and wrong.

Have you ever been to the charity shield and watched your team play?