Independent Leyton Orient Forum

George M wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 3:07 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 1:56 pm Its not irrelevant, if you are anti wind power then how do you suggest we generate electricity?

Or just admit it, you dont care, you just dont want to have to make effort or expense to improve things at all.

Nobody is doubting that wind , water , solar has to be a better solution than oil going forwards but , science has to prove beyond doubt that the manufacture and disposal of at end of life is less damaging than fossil fuel. Evidence of this is sketchy and not something I would trust government on .

So, who would you trust? A business with a vested interest ? Someone on Youtube ? Surely, the whole point of government is that we appoint people to gather this sort of evidence and to make these sort of decisions.

He means our government, as opposed to the governments still pushing fossil fuels such as the US, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 3:31 pm

George M wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 3:07 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 1:56 pm Its not irrelevant, if you are anti wind power then how do you suggest we generate electricity?

Or just admit it, you dont care, you just dont want to have to make effort or expense to improve things at all.

Nobody is doubting that wind , water , solar has to be a better solution than oil going forwards but , science has to prove beyond doubt that the manufacture and disposal of at end of life is less damaging than fossil fuel. Evidence of this is sketchy and not something I would trust government on .

So, who would you trust? A business with a vested interest ? Someone on Youtube ? Surely, the whole point of government is that we appoint people to gather this sort of evidence and to make these sort of decisions.

With a history of lies , disinformation and self interest, government ( Tory or Labour ) are not where I will be seeking reassurance on climate change or solutions.

Stop teasing us and tell us who you trust.

George M wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 4:03 pm

StillSpike wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 3:31 pm

George M wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 3:07 pm

Nobody is doubting that wind , water , solar has to be a better solution than oil going forwards but , science has to prove beyond doubt that the manufacture and disposal of at end of life is less damaging than fossil fuel. Evidence of this is sketchy and not something I would trust government on .

So, who would you trust? A business with a vested interest ? Someone on Youtube ? Surely, the whole point of government is that we appoint people to gather this sort of evidence and to make these sort of decisions.

With a history of lies , disinformation and self interest, government ( Tory or Labour ) are not where I will be seeking reassurance on climate change or solutions.

If you've ruled out "scientists" and "Government" - who are you going to trust?

I trust the ecologists who are tirelessly working in the field gathering data on species decline and extinction as a direct result of climate change. I don’t trust the politicians who only have short term views and self interest. I believe scientists are working hard to solve the results of climate change but it’s for governments to reduce the cause. I don’t believe that will happen.

George M wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 3:07 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 1:56 pm Its not irrelevant, if you are anti wind power then how do you suggest we generate electricity?

Or just admit it, you dont care, you just dont want to have to make effort or expense to improve things at all.

Nobody is doubting that wind , water , solar has to be a better solution than oil going forwards but , science has to prove beyond doubt that the manufacture and disposal of at end of life is less damaging than fossil fuel. Evidence of this is sketchy and not something I would trust government on .

So what are you saying here? You'll trust the scientists when they say that that wind/solar/water is less damaging that fossil fuel ? but not if they tell the government and the government tells you? I'm struggling to understand how we move forward.

I don't dispute, by the way, that successive lying mendacious politicians have eaten away at the credibility of "government", but you have to accept that sometimes they're telling the truth.

When "the Government" says that smoking is bad for you - but tobacco companies say it's not - do you automatically side with the tobacco companies, because, well, they're not the Government ?

SS. Regarding smoking , I am intelligent enough to make the decision for myself. I didn’t say I trust the scientists. I can see for myself that , at face value, wind , solar , and water producing energy are better for the environment than burning coal or oil. You don’t need to be a scientist to see that. Let’s keep ecology scientists separate from chemical scientists for the sake of discussion

And reading my posts , I don’t believe I said I didn’t trust scientists. I said I don’t trust government

George M wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:06 pm And reading my posts , I don’t believe I said I didn’t trust scientists. I said I don’t trust government

Well this bit :

"Remember believing the bullshit about Covid from our scientists and government. Most of it , not all , proven to be rubbish and incompetently handled. And now you jump straight back in on the net zero rubbish. Not disputing the science. But don’t believe or agree with the policies."

... sounds a bit like not trusting scientists - or at least not trusting their outputs when distributed via government. It's not very clear, so perhaps I've misunderstood ?

To summarise 1. I don’t trust governments to do enough to prevent a climate change disaster. 2. I trust the data coming from ecologists highlighting the plight we all face. 3. I believe that scientists will find ways of addressing some of results of climate change. 4. Ultimately, over population, over consumption are the drivers of climate change and we are showing an unwillingness to embrace or deal with that.

Kudos for plugging away, SS, but it's very hard to understand a position which makes no sense.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:18 pm

George M wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:06 pm And reading my posts , I don’t believe I said I didn’t trust scientists. I said I don’t trust government

Well this bit :

"Remember believing the bullshit about Covid from our scientists and government. Most of it , not all , proven to be rubbish and incompetently handled. And now you jump straight back in on the net zero rubbish. Not disputing the science. But don’t believe or agree with the policies."

... sounds a bit like not trusting scientists - or at least not trusting their outputs when distributed via government. It's not very clear, so perhaps I've misunderstood ?

I didn’t believe most of what was being blurted out every night or the way it was presented. I don’t trust science with government input or intervention. I trust good , well researched , independent science .

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:23 pm Kudos for plugging away, SS, but it's very hard to understand a position which makes no sense.

So let’s have your views

I believe in climate change. I believe the scientists. Big Oil etc will lead our planet into further ruination for the pursuit of their short term gain and profits. I mistrust governments - including our own - yet sometimes they will be telling the truth. Yet I also despair at how they succumb to the interests of the more powerful lobbyists, and their reluctance to act on the irrefutable evidence they have available for the sake of their similar short term interests. The steps they take will inevitably fall short of the meaningful actions needed because to do otherwise would be unpopular, as demonstrated on this very thread.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:35 pm I believe in climate change. I believe the scientists. Big Oil etc will lead our planet into further ruination for the pursuit of their short term gain and profits. I mistrust governments - including our own - yet sometimes they will be telling the truth. Yet I also despair at how they succumb to the interests of the more powerful lobbyists, and their reluctance to act on the irrefutable evidence they have available for the sake of their similar short term interests. The steps they take will inevitably fall short of the meaningful actions needed because to do otherwise would be unpopular, as demonstrated on this very thread.

Put better than I have done.

We have broadly similar views and you have expressed them in a more coherent way than I have.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:35 pm I believe in climate change. I believe the scientists. Big Oil etc will lead our planet into further ruination for the pursuit of their short term gain and profits. I mistrust governments - including our own - yet sometimes they will be telling the truth. Yet I also despair at how they succumb to the interests of the more powerful lobbyists, and their reluctance to act on the irrefutable evidence they have available for the sake of their similar short term interests. The steps they take will inevitably fall short of the meaningful actions needed because to do otherwise would be unpopular, as demonstrated on this very thread.

With America, China, India and Russia steaming ahead with fossil fuels what we’re doing here is not only expensive but futile.

Do you have grandkids, RD?

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 7:10 pm

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:35 pm I believe in climate change. I believe the scientists. Big Oil etc will lead our planet into further ruination for the pursuit of their short term gain and profits. I mistrust governments - including our own - yet sometimes they will be telling the truth. Yet I also despair at how they succumb to the interests of the more powerful lobbyists, and their reluctance to act on the irrefutable evidence they have available for the sake of their similar short term interests. The steps they take will inevitably fall short of the meaningful actions needed because to do otherwise would be unpopular, as demonstrated on this very thread.

With America, China, India and Russia steaming ahead with fossil fuels what we’re doing here is not only expensive but futile.

"Too expensive" to save life on earth

My God, we really are screwed

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 7:46 pm

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 7:10 pm

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:35 pm I believe in climate change. I believe the scientists. Big Oil etc will lead our planet into further ruination for the pursuit of their short term gain and profits. I mistrust governments - including our own - yet sometimes they will be telling the truth. Yet I also despair at how they succumb to the interests of the more powerful lobbyists, and their reluctance to act on the irrefutable evidence they have available for the sake of their similar short term interests. The steps they take will inevitably fall short of the meaningful actions needed because to do otherwise would be unpopular, as demonstrated on this very thread.

With America, China, India and Russia steaming ahead with fossil fuels what we’re doing here is not only expensive but futile.

"Too expensive" to save life on earth

My God, we really are screwed

One little country on its own is like pissing in the wind . So yes , our efforts will be futile without those bigger countries also pulling in the same direction .

So may as well not bother, eh?

We account for 0.8% of world emissions, China 34%

But if we get our number down to 0% then China might change their behaviour, right?

If we bought less crap from China, that might help them get the score down.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 11:34 pm If we bought less crap from China, that might help them get the score down.

Well, the good news coming from the economy thread, is that this is a very likely outcome.