Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Fatbaz wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 3:46 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 3:19 pm But, shouldnt parents have a say about what their kids are taught? I'm not sure it is appropriate to teach young children about Trans stuff.

You're right to say that parents should have some say in what their kids are taught.
My understanding in this case is that the school teaches a wide range of 'equality' issues but a group of parents seem to have decided that this particular 'equality' isn't acceptable.

My understanding of the actual subject matter being taught is that it doesn't go into any detail of the various lifestyles as such. What is being taught here is that some folks are 'different' and should not be victimised because of it.

I've seen some of the books being used and they look harmless.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 3:29 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 3:19 pm But, shouldnt parents have a say about what their kids are taught? I'm not sure it is appropriate to teach young children about Trans stuff.

Do you think it’s appropriate to teach them about heterosexuality?

What would heterosexuality lessons be like? Do you mean sex education?

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 1:56 pm

Fatbaz wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 12:54 pm I don’t find anything particularly surprising in this situation. Religion is an anachronism in the modern world. All religions were formulated long ago by ignorant men. Time has caught up with them and their nonsensical bleatings are becoming more absurd as each year passes. This is just another example of how religious teaching conflicts with progressive developments within societies.

Christianity fares no better than any other religion, of course.

It’s quite clear how it views homosexuality:

Leviticus
18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Christianity is also deeply conflicted when it comes to women:

Timothy 1
2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

So we should have no women teachers according to the Bible – but we do.

We shouldn’t have any female clergy either - but we do.
1 Corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches: it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

When it comes to actual observance of religious dictates, only fundamentalists can be considered ‘genuine’ in their beliefs. Everybody else is just cherry-picking the bits that they like whilst ignoring the bits that they don’t.

By the book, I guess Christianity is just as bad. But people of that faith in this country at least seem to have gotten over it and modernised their beliefs.

Leviticus is the 3rd book of the Torah & is not a book of Catholic/Christian religion as such & as with the rest of the old testament is in fact the book of Moses/ David .

The others are of Course books of the Catholic Christian faith , but a commonly misunderstood belief is that it is the word of God .
It is not , it really is just a guide of Jesus Christ & his teachings or more plainly put his words & actions .
---- --- ---- ---- ----

What Islam would call the Injil , Christs Gospel ,

Catholics specifically would call the word of god
In other words the Mass one would attend daily or weekly depending on your devoutness .

Obviously the bible is taken including some parts that as has already been stated, should be condemed to the age they were from & left well behind.

All 3 religions of the book are basically the same thing ,
However they have all been guilty of corruption by those that have read the meaning of the message as they are meant to be .

Hence why i No longer practice any religion

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 3:56 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 3:29 pm
Do you think it’s appropriate to teach them about heterosexuality?

Ooohhh controversial.

One of the reasons that schools taught sex education, or heterosexuality as you put it, was to reduce the number of teenage pregnancies.

There are not going to be many of those arising from LGBT relationships.

Well said and well pointed out. Common sense prevails.

Lock them up.

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 4:06 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 3:29 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 3:19 pm But, shouldnt parents have a say about what their kids are taught? I'm not sure it is appropriate to teach young children about Trans stuff.

Do you think it’s appropriate to teach them about heterosexuality?

What would heterosexuality lessons be like? Do you mean sex education?

I don’t know. My question, I guess is, do you not think kids should be talk about sexuality/gender identification in general, or just not trans?

I don't see how it's possible to be born the wrong gender, so don't teach kids that it is possible. The treatments are horrendous and untested.

@ Tuffers#1

I would take issue with your assertion that,

"Leviticus is the 3rd book of the Torah & is not a book of Catholic/Christian religion as such & as with the rest of the old testament is in fact the book of Moses/ David .

The others are of Course books of the Catholic Christian faith , but a commonly misunderstood belief is that it is the word of God .
It is not , it really is just a guide of Jesus Christ & his teachings or more plainly put his words & actions ."

Leviticus/Torah is an essential part of the Christian bible because it contains the Mosaic laws. Laws given by God to Moses which Jesus (we are told) fully accepted.

It is true that most of the NT does not contain 'the words of God' but, the entire bible is, we are told, the inspired word of god.

baz

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 5:43 pm I don't see how it's possible to be born the wrong gender, so don't teach kids that it is possible. The treatments are horrendous and untested.

Not saying you are wrong, but there are people out there who identify differently. Should we not be teaching kids that some people might be different and these people exist?

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 5:43 pm I don't see how it's possible to be born the wrong gender, so don't teach kids that it is possible. The treatments are horrendous and untested.

Really ?

Blimey there are people who still believe stuff like that is down to choice

I think the whole sex education & maybe Human Biology should be retaught to all.


Its what some would call mutation like you may get with certain rare conditions specific to groups of people .

Others might call it Evolution.

All single cells start as female & then change to male in roughly half , stands to reason some wouldnt necessarily change correctly

If the gene change from parents doesnt map out right you get these so called conditions , therefore it can be the same with the mix up in changing from fully male to fully female .


Just look at Caster Semenya .

While you are at it look up the 1st 3 women in the olympic 800 m final in Rio & then google each name with
XY46 .

Might teach you an awful lot about what can happen.

Then google the word
Parthenogenesis.

It might just prove to you that this belief of male & female being the only way might not be the end result of the Human race.

The next step in Evolution could well be just happening now in front of your very eyes

Fatbaz wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 3:46 pm My understanding of the actual subject matter being taught is that it doesn't go into any detail of the various lifestyles as such. What is being taught here is that some folks are 'different' and should not be victimised because of it.

Exactly. There is Department for Education guidance on this which states "these subjects don’t ‘promote’ anything, they educate".

Fatbaz wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 6:27 pm @ Tuffers#1

I would take issue with your assertion that,

"Leviticus is the 3rd book of the Torah & is not a book of Catholic/Christian religion as such & as with the rest of the old testament is in fact the book of Moses/ David .

The others are of Course books of the Catholic Christian faith , but a commonly misunderstood belief is that it is the word of God .
It is not , it really is just a guide of Jesus Christ & his teachings or more plainly put his words & actions ."

Leviticus/Torah is an essential part of the Christian bible because it contains the Mosaic laws. Laws given by God to Moses which Jesus (we are told) fully accepted.

It is true that most of the NT does not contain 'the words of God' but, the entire bible is, we are told, the inspired word of god.

baz

While i agree with what you say Baz, its not quite what i said.

The old testament was this.

God: i gave you a set of rules ( Torah & jews)
God : you ignored my rules
Im sending you new rules & my son ( bible catholics/christianity )
God you ignored my rules again
I send you another set of rules ( Qu'ran muslims)

In all 3 the rules are this

Be nice to each other
Dont be killing each other & poo poo like that
If you are the good ones ill take you to heaven
The bad ones will burn in hell .




Its humans who cant see the simplicity of the rules.

Is this LGBT vs Muslims a 19.45 or 15.00 kick off

Cheers, Tuffers,

apologies if I missed the nuance in your posting.
We could go on but, I think I know where you're coming from and have no problem with it.
Like you, I do find religion a fascinating subject.

Returning to the OP, 'Pedant' has provided a useful link to the necessary legislation at issue here and, I think that it's pretty clear that there is no attempt by the Government to 'promote' anything.

baz

Indeed Baz .
Im mot really fascinated with religions but with the belief.of those that do follow it .

When you tell religous people anything about science they give it but its gods will

F*ck right orf , he must be a Scientist otherwise he wouldnt have known 2 parts of hydrogen & 1 part of oxygen & 1 part sodium & 1 part chloride ( salt)
Could keep us alive for weeks on end without food.


Smart Fella this God Woman

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 6:35 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 5:43 pm I don't see how it's possible to be born the wrong gender, so don't teach kids that it is possible. The treatments are horrendous and untested.

Really ?

Blimey there are people who still believe stuff like that is down to choice

I think the whole sex education & maybe Human Biology should be retaught to all.


Its what some would call mutation like you may get with certain rare conditions specific to groups of people .

Others might call it Evolution.

All single cells start as female & then change to male in roughly half , stands to reason some wouldnt necessarily change correctly

If the gene change from parents doesnt map out right you get these so called conditions , therefore it can be the same with the mix up in changing from fully male to fully female .


Just look at Caster Semenya .

While you are at it look up the 1st 3 women in the olympic 800 m final in Rio & then google each name with
XY46 .

Might teach you an awful lot about what can happen.

Then google the word
Parthenogenesis.

It might just prove to you that this belief of male & female being the only way might not be the end result of the Human race.

The next step in Evolution could well be just happening now in front of your very eyes

Not saying it's a choice. Pretty sure the rest of your post is just made up/ a mish mash of other conditions.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 6:33 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 5:43 pm I don't see how it's possible to be born the wrong gender, so don't teach kids that it is possible. The treatments are horrendous and untested.

Not saying you are wrong, but there are people out there who identify differently. Should we not be teaching kids that some people might be different and these people exist?

I guess that's a good general message

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 7:10 pm

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 6:35 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 5:43 pm I don't see how it's possible to be born the wrong gender, so don't teach kids that it is possible. The treatments are horrendous and untested.

Really ?

Blimey there are people who still believe stuff like that is down to choice

I think the whole sex education & maybe Human Biology should be retaught to all.


Its what some would call mutation like you may get with certain rare conditions specific to groups of people .

Others might call it Evolution.

All single cells start as female & then change to male in roughly half , stands to reason some wouldnt necessarily change correctly

If the gene change from parents doesnt map out right you get these so called conditions , therefore it can be the same with the mix up in changing from fully male to fully female .


Just look at Caster Semenya .

While you are at it look up the 1st 3 women in the olympic 800 m final in Rio & then google each name with
XY46 .

Might teach you an awful lot about what can happen.

Then google the word
Parthenogenesis.

It might just prove to you that this belief of male & female being the only way might not be the end result of the Human race.

The next step in Evolution could well be just happening now in front of your very eyes

Not saying it's a choice. Pretty sure the rest of your post is just made up/ a mish mash of other conditions.

Head still stuck in the Sand .

Youd probably be a perfect Muslim

Caster Semenya isn't transgender, dumbass.

I didnt say she was dumbass

I said she was xy46

Huge difference between xy46 & transgender.

But if you dont want to read up on what that difference is & therefore cant see the possibility that the original blue print for x & y to mutate correctly every time without making a mistake you are a fool.

All you have to do is put a photo on a printer & press copy till the ink runs out.

The copies will not exactly be the same as the original photo.

Still you keep believing that 2+2 = coconut

Tuffers stop pretending to be a fountain of knowledge on every single thing posted on here

I know you have a friend in google not Jesus

Lucky7 wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 6:54 pm Is this LGBT vs Muslims a 19.45 or 15.00 kick off

Dunno but there will be a pitch invasion after the game.

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 7:57 pm I didnt say she was dumbass

I said she was xy46

Huge difference between xy46 & transgender.

But if you dont want to read up on what that difference is & therefore cant see the possibility that the original blue print for x & y to mutate correctly every time without making a mistake you are a fool.

All you have to do is put a photo on a printer & press copy till the ink runs out.

The copies will not exactly be the same as the original photo.

Still you keep believing that 2+2 = coconut

@tuffers
I agree with most of what you say. Some people are born intersex ( used to be called hermaphrodite ) its NOT a personal choice to be born like that. Some females from an early age, look and act like boys, like to wear male clothes and prefer women to men when it comes to having relationships, nothing new about this, not a modern fad ( see The new BBC Sunday evening series ''Gentleman Jack'' 19th century true story of Anne Lister)

Of course the same applies to males who look and act in feminine ways from a very early age and wish with all their hearts to be girls.
Parents may intensely dislike their children being different in this type of way, but the young people themselves cant help it, its just them wanting to be the person that they are inside and from all research these feelings start from a young age.
Some people of both sexes are gay, some wish to change their sex by using modern hormone treatment and surgery, it happens, its surely not something that appears on anyone's wish list !!
What I have reservations about is teaching very young kids too much about all this type of information. Perhaps wait till they are around the ages of 11 onward.
If anyone has strong religious beliefs, well if there is such a thing as a ''Creator'' then surely he made people in all colours of the rainbow, to be loved and respected in what ever shape and form they turn out to be. Surely one of the main lessons of any religion is to be kind and considerate to one another.

Indeed Sid .

And if medically it can be accepted that health conditions can be a direct consequence of
Mutations in xy chromosones , then whose to say that the chemical balance of testosterone
And Estrogen dont do the same as well as physical emotion.

There is huge amounts of stuff we dont have a clue about yet as we are still trying to understand
physicality & fixing things like Cancer etc which every human being alive technically has .

So if we are nowhere near that how can we possibly explain anything else .


And here is where it brings me to the point of all of this .

If Religion does not accept people for differences of sexual orientations or people of
Non male or female , then surely they cannot accept handicapped children physically
Or mentally.
I say that because they are afflicted by mutations within the male female chromosones .

If you accept they are gods creations & deserve a rightful place then you must do so
for everyone elses mutation.

As i said before i dont like the word mutation id rather call it evolved people as all of us are.

But as there are Creatuers that live on this Earth who do not need Coitus ( as Sheldon Cooper might say )
To reproduce whose to say that we really do ?

Ewan mcGregors character in trainspotting might have been more right than he knew

Were all going to end up as w*nkers

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 8:55 pm Indeed Sid .

And if medically it can be accepted that health conditions can be a direct consequence of
Mutations in xy chromosones , then whose to say that the chemical balance of testosterone
And Estrogen dont do the same as well as physical emotion.

There is huge amounts of stuff we dont have a clue about yet as we are still trying to understand
physicality & fixing things like Cancer etc which every human being alive technically has .

So if we are nowhere near that how can we possibly explain anything else .


And here is where it brings me to the point of all of this .

If Religion does not accept people for differences of sexual orientations or people of
Non male or female , then surely they cannot accept handicapped children physically
Or mentally.
I say that because they are afflicted by mutations within the male female chromosones .

If you accept they are gods creations & deserve a rightful place then you must do so
for everyone elses mutation.

As i said before i dont like the word mutation id rather call it evolved people as all of us are.

But as there are Creatuers that live on this Earth who do not need Coitus ( as Sheldon Cooper might say )
To reproduce whose to say that we really do ?

Ewan mcGregors character in trainspotting might have been more right than he knew

Were all going to end up as w*nkers

Modern brain scans would seem to show that many people who wish to change to the opposite sex have brains whose structure is more similar to the sex they wish to change to than the sex given at birth. Thus a person can be classed as male via what genitals they are born with but their brain gender is female. Same goes for Females. Back in the early 60s ( yes strangely enough gay people happened then ! ) my sister was in the horse riding set. She knew a brother and sister who were twins. The woman looked and acted like a man and the man was very feminine looking and acting. The woman was a farm manager and wore men's clothes and had big hands and had manly looking facial features. I heard her in the kitchen, crying to my mum once saying ''Why was I born like this'' so sad, nice person but born in the wrong body. I never forgot that, a life lesson.
An often said thing by American religious cranks on YouTube channels that discuss such things as this. ''There are only two sexes, Male or Female, GOD made EVERYONE perfect''........ Really ?