Independent Leyton Orient Forum

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:37 am

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:27 am

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:58 am

He has good friends at LFC, doesn’t he...

Yep. It's all about getting extra money for the top clubs with a small token handout to the EFL. Not surprised money men are all for it.

£250m + 25% every deal isn’t a small token.

I have a few issues with the deal

1. Every deal made in the last 30 years between the prem and the EFL has subsequently been changed in favour of the Prem. What's to stop this changing in 5 years time when the prem has all the power?

2. I don't trust the EFL clubs to spend this money wisely. Every deal that ever got made has had the effect of creating an inflation (or deflation) in player wages.

3. The big 6 want to scrap the 2/3 majority (14/6) and so by default increase their influence.

4. The big 6 want to increase the prize money at the the top of the prem (its currently set at 180% of the bottom club?). Again, more money for the rich.

The changes to the voting structure mean that the rest of the "deal" is entirely meaningless - the big 6 can change the rest of it anytime they want if they get to decide among themselves. Why can't people see that?

They might as well say "Let us decide the rules, and we'll give you all your own golden crown to wear and a free doughnut (* but we might decide not to, once we're in a position to decide the rules)"

It really doesn't matter what anyone thinks of the other items on the list - nearly all of them appeal to me individually - if they're tied to the concentration of power among the 6 then they probably won't happen at all, or if they do, for a very short time.

What's the point in amassing power if you're not going to abuse it?

Point two is right. There is nothing to suggest that any money will be put away for a rainy day (or a pandemic) and everything to suggest it will go to buying more players and players wages. FTSE companies didn’t even save any money for an event like this and have given every bean out in dividends to shareholders in the last few years. You expect football clubs to suddenly be all prudent with the pennies. They are just about the last business that I would trust.

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:15 am

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:09 am

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:06 am Guess Travis doesn't see Orient ever going on a promotion spree a la Bournemouth.

This way the clubs furure is secured in the short term and long term they get a few morsels from that sweet sweet Premier League Pie

He sees it that everyone gets a slice of the pie rather than a few teams becoming secure due to parachute payments. I’m opposed to the scrapping of the league cup and charity shield but overall it’s a fair proposal.

Intersting

Scrapping the League Cup was the most appealing part of the package to me. The Charity Shield is a one-off glorified friendly so mehhh

We play far too much football in this country at the top level and having two domestic cups doesn't make sense. Hopefully scrapping it might lead to the FA Cup regaining some of its lost prestige. The League Cup itself is a devalued tournament anyway that none of the top teams take seriously but is invariably won by one of the "Big 6's" reserve teams.

Correct on all counts.

How anyone can defend the Charity Shield as being remotely interesting is beyond me.

Beradogs wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:47 am Point two is right. There is nothing to suggest that any money will be put away for a rainy day (or a pandemic) and everything to suggest it will go to buying more players and players wages. FTSE companies didn’t even save any money for an event like this and have given every bean out in dividends to shareholders in the last few years. You expect football clubs to suddenly be all prudent with the pennies. They are just about the last business that I would trust.

Yep. You can guarantee fans up in arms too knowing we get this money if not spent on the team ("we got no ambition, other clubs are spending it on their team but we're not - typical Orient"). That then just adds to the cycle because fans (especially ours) are never happy at the best of times.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:39 am The changes to the voting structure mean that the rest of the "deal" is entirely meaningless - the big 6 can change the rest of it anytime they want if they get to decide among themselves. Why can't people see that?

They might as well say "Let us decide the rules, and we'll give you all your own golden crown to wear and a free doughnut (* but we might decide not to, once we're in a position to decide the rules)"

This. The clubs driving this, Liverpool and Man U, are owned by American investors who's background is in the closed shop American sporting franchise system. It's such an obvious stitch up - what possible rationale is there for concentrating power so clearly with the richest, other than for them to use it for their own ends?

Not that I have much sympathy with the smaller EPL clubs, who are suddenly worrying about being closed out of their payday having refused to engage with the EFL about a bailout on the grounds that 'why should successful businesses be subsidising the poorer ones?' They are almost as dispensable as we are when compared against the big clubs, hopefully this will awaken them to that fact.

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:36 am

redintheface wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:30 am I agree with your comments concerning the amount of football played and that the League Cup is a tournament that has lost any prestige it once had. Hopefully the EFL will follow suit and ditch the meaningless “Trophy” that has little to commend it.
The big concern I have is the proposed concentration of decision making power being given to what I understand is the nine longest serving teams in the Premier League of which only two thirds ( i.e 6) have to agree in order to change virtually anything.
I don’t think anybody should kid themselves that the owners of these Premiership teams have woken up one morning and suddenly decided that they need to help out the EFL strugglers out of charity! They are in it for themselves and no one else.
I remain deeply suspicious of the scheme and the motives behind it.

Do nothing and very soon, many lower league clubs will be gone completely, many never to return.

I think there is a difference between doing nothing and blindly accepting a proposal than will do nothing to sustain lower league clubs in the long term

LittleMate wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:08 am

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:37 am

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:27 am

Yep. It's all about getting extra money for the top clubs with a small token handout to the EFL. Not surprised money men are all for it.

£250m + 25% every deal isn’t a small token.

I have a few issues with the deal

1. Every deal made in the last 30 years between the prem and the EFL has subsequently been changed in favour of the Prem. What's to stop this changing in 5 years time when the prem has all the power?

2. I don't trust the EFL clubs to spend this money wisely. Every deal that ever got made has had the effect of creating an inflation (or deflation) in player wages.

3. The big 6 want to scrap the 2/3 majority (14/6) and so by default increase their influence.

4. The big 6 want to increase the prize money at the the top of the prem (its currently set at 180% of the bottom club?). Again, more money for the rich.

1. What’s the alternative? Just keep it like it is? Give the EFL 90%?

2. That’s a worry for me too. Where does that money go? How is it spent? Will bad owners be able to run clubs into the ground and be bailed out?

3. The increased voting rights are given to teams who are long term in the PL under this proposal, it isn’t just the big clubs and the 2 rich clubs. Why should Fulham get an equal vote this year when they’re probably going to go down and stay down? It’s about time clubs got control of their own TV rights and that benefits the fans of that team.

4. What’s wrong with rewarding good performance with more money? I’m sure if the prize money for winning L2 was £2m and finishing near the top was a lot more than it is, fans wouldn’t be complaining.

Disoriented wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:07 am

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:15 am

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:09 am
He sees it that everyone gets a slice of the pie rather than a few teams becoming secure due to parachute payments. I’m opposed to the scrapping of the league cup and charity shield but overall it’s a fair proposal.

Intersting

Scrapping the League Cup was the most appealing part of the package to me. The Charity Shield is a one-off glorified friendly so mehhh

We play far too much football in this country at the top level and having two domestic cups doesn't make sense. Hopefully scrapping it might lead to the FA Cup regaining some of its lost prestige. The League Cup itself is a devalued tournament anyway that none of the top teams take seriously but is invariably won by one of the "Big 6's" reserve teams.

Correct on all counts.

How anyone can defend the Charity Shield as being remotely interesting is beyond me.

It’s a day out on the piss with your mates at Wembley and a curtain raiser for the season. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:39 am The changes to the voting structure mean that the rest of the "deal" is entirely meaningless - the big 6 can change the rest of it anytime they want if they get to decide among themselves. Why can't people see that?

They might as well say "Let us decide the rules, and we'll give you all your own golden crown to wear and a free doughnut (* but we might decide not to, once we're in a position to decide the rules)"

It has no impact on Orient apart from the money part of the deal and even then, you’re paranoid.

Not paranoid at all. Why would they want to change voting structure, if they don't intend to do something that the current voting structure would block?

And if it were in their power to change the deal, once it's done, to their advantage - why on earth wouldn't they? Altruism ?

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:09 am

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:06 am Guess Travis doesn't see Orient ever going on a promotion spree a la Bournemouth.

This way the clubs furure is secured in the short term and long term they get a few morsels from that sweet sweet Premier League Pie

He sees it that everyone gets a slice of the pie rather than a few teams becoming secure due to parachute payments. I’m opposed to the scrapping of the league cup and charity shield but overall it’s a fair proposal.

As it was and has always been.

Obedience generated by the crumbs from the rich man's table.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:42 am It really doesn't matter what anyone thinks of the other items on the list - nearly all of them appeal to me individually - if they're tied to the concentration of power among the 6 then they probably won't happen at all, or if they do, for a very short time.

What's the point in amassing power if you're not going to abuse it?

Hehe. We love Arthur Fortune. He gave us a dollar.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:17 pm Not paranoid at all. Why would they want to change voting structure, if they don't intend to do something that the current voting structure would block?

And if it were in their power to change the deal, once it's done, to their advantage - why on earth wouldn't they? Altruism ?

Correct.

Having seen what was going on behind the scenes in Scotch football these last 10 years or so I cant help feel one can't be paranoid enough.

Can see why EFL clubs and chairmen are in favour of the proposals as the financial package is a saviour in these uncertain times.
Personally i have no confidence in trusting the "Big Six" as they have no interest in the football league other than getting their way with B teams and this starts with the increase in loanees to league clubs. Top e nglish clubs will be in a European Super league and premier league B teams will be diluting the EFL. The future TV revenue percentage to league clubs is another thing that will probably change pretty quickly along with many other things through rules and regulations.
My enjoyment with proffessional football is decreasing each year and the greed culture just enforces that view.
Short term good deal for EFL clubs, long term i dont trust big money people who only have self interest.

Just read that last weekend's game at Barrow cost the O's £7,000 instead of £3,500 as we had to have 2 coaches instead of 1 for the players who were all booked into single rooms due to social distancing , no wonder Grimsby wanted Saturdays game put back to a later time

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:22 pm

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:09 am

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:06 am Guess Travis doesn't see Orient ever going on a promotion spree a la Bournemouth.

This way the clubs furure is secured in the short term and long term they get a few morsels from that sweet sweet Premier League Pie

He sees it that everyone gets a slice of the pie rather than a few teams becoming secure due to parachute payments. I’m opposed to the scrapping of the league cup and charity shield but overall it’s a fair proposal.

As it was and has always been.

Obedience generated by the crumbs from the rich man's table.

There’s 2 choices. Either EFL clubs realise they generate the best part of f*** all outside of filling their ground and keep it like it is or they get a load of money from clubs that don’t have to give them anything

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:17 pm Not paranoid at all. Why would they want to change voting structure, if they don't intend to do something that the current voting structure would block?

And if it were in their power to change the deal, once it's done, to their advantage - why on earth wouldn't they? Altruism ?

As I’ve mentioned. A team like Bristol City could get promotion and then vote for something that fucks over the teams that have been in the PL for decades. The proposals doesn’t just include the top 6, it includes teams that have made up the PL for a long time.

How would you like it if Bolton voted to f*** over Orient this season, they go up and Orient stay mid table for the next 5 years?

What is this about for you? The money for the EFL? As an Orient fan, why do you care about what the PL get up to?

gshaw wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:27 am It's not about the short term cash windfall it's the changes the big 6 will have the power to impose afterwards.

Don't want B teams... tough
Don't want to lose your academy players for nothing... tough
Don't want reduced promotion spots to the Prem... tough

And so on. Basically giving the future of the game away, the big clubs making a very cynical move here. Travis seems to have fallen for it hook line and sinker.

The only bit of it I agree with is dropping the pointless cups. No one really cares for the EFL Cup or Trophy tbh. However losing FA Cup replays is bad for lower league clubs and that's probably here to stay now.

The decision on B teams isn't down to the PL team vote. Neither is the academy players. The PL was originally 18 teams. The Bundesliga is 18 with a playoff game.

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:26 am

EH16 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:51 am

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:08 am
It’s the same system as they have in Germany. How does it prevent teams like Leicester winning the league? How does it stop teams like you mentioned from ‘challeneging the elite’?

Without the likes of United and Liverpool, there wouldn’t be the money there is in the PL.

That's exactly the point, it IS the money. And the more the big teams have, the harder it is for others to challenge. If you can get beyond the standard inane response of 'Scottish football is rubbish anyway' you only need to look at how Rangers and Celtic have used their financial muscle for decades now to dominate. It doesn't PREVENT other teams from winning things it DOES make it very difficult

Right, so you don’t want a £250m lump sump and 25% of any new tv deal? Money that wouldn’t be there if it wasn’t for those big teams? Wasn’t it 2 weeks ago everyone was whinging about not being about to get 120k for the Spurs game? If that was a game against Barnsley, do you think Orient would have got anywhere near that? Look at all the teams that have got far in the cups, got European places and challenged for the league in the last 10/15 years.

The comparison with Scottish football is idiotic.

Where was all this moaning when Bechetti first came in throwing his money about? Orient fans thought it was the start of something special.

Still waiting for someone to confirm Orient fans were moaning about all the money Bechetti was throwing at the club. Same fans who piped up when Salford bought their way out of the NL too.

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:13 pm

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:17 pm Not paranoid at all. Why would they want to change voting structure, if they don't intend to do something that the current voting structure would block?

And if it were in their power to change the deal, once it's done, to their advantage - why on earth wouldn't they? Altruism ?

As I’ve mentioned. A team like Bristol City could get promotion and then vote for something that fucks over the teams that have been in the PL for decades. The proposals doesn’t just include the top 6, it includes teams that have made up the PL for a long time.

How would you like it if Bolton voted to f*** over Orient this season, they go up and Orient stay mid table for the next 5 years?

What is this about for you? The money for the EFL? As an Orient fan, why do you care about what the PL get up to?

I'll make it simple for you - since it seems you need that.

As an Orient fan, I'm against anything that threatens the Orient's continued existence. For example, one wish that the big 6 have made no bones about wanting is the introduction of B teams into the Football League (see the comments by Man City's Chairman only the other week). Never mind the sporting integrity aspect of this - that's bad enough - it also facilitates the bigger clubs hoarding young players and concentrating even more of the money (and therefore power) into their hands. There's little enough trickle down as it stands - you want to exacerbate the situation even more by allowing Chelsea to hoover up all the young talent in London so that LOFC never get to discover/develop/sell on ?? You want to close off that possible door to smaller clubs (like LOFC) gaining much needed funds?

Are you so stupid as to not see that allowing the clubs at the very top to dictate rules of competitions - which clubs must be allowed into the leagues - which clubs are to be designated as "feeder" outfits, for example, will have no effect on Leyton Orient? Seriously?

And while we're at it - what is the source of your rather touching faith that the big 6 would continue to show such generosity towards the rest of the football league when they don't have to?

Again, I'll ask you the question - why is it so important to the Big 6 to change the voting structure ? The current structure is in place to stop a handful of teams f*cking over the rest - why on Earth do you support changing it to allow just 6 clubs to dictate ALL rules and terms to the rest of the game - at all levels of the whole pyramid, not just the EPL. I'm fascinated to hear why you think that's a good idea.

Interesting note from the FA.

https://www.thefa.com/news/2020/oct/13/ ... cil-131020

The penultimate paragraph could be taken as a veiled threat to the 6 (and Parry) about whether the FA will allow them to get away without consequences.

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:16 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:27 am It's not about the short term cash windfall it's the changes the big 6 will have the power to impose afterwards.

Don't want B teams... tough
Don't want to lose your academy players for nothing... tough
Don't want reduced promotion spots to the Prem... tough

And so on. Basically giving the future of the game away, the big clubs making a very cynical move here. Travis seems to have fallen for it hook line and sinker.

The only bit of it I agree with is dropping the pointless cups. No one really cares for the EFL Cup or Trophy tbh. However losing FA Cup replays is bad for lower league clubs and that's probably here to stay now.

The decision on B teams isn't down to the PL team vote. Neither is the academy players. The PL was originally 18 teams. The Bundesliga is 18 with a playoff game.

But under their new powers it could be. That's the point.

As for the TV money is anyone that naive to believe that having got the vote powers on the promise of a sizeable chunk of EPL TV money the big clubs couldn't then vote to reduce it shortly afterwards?

Let's be blunt here, this isn't a move done out of goodwill; it's a cynical power grab aimed at furthering the ambitions of a select few.

The rest of the teams should call their ("big" clubs) bluff and accept the other proposals minus the voting structure changes and see the reaction.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:30 pm

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:13 pm

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:17 pm Not paranoid at all. Why would they want to change voting structure, if they don't intend to do something that the current voting structure would block?

And if it were in their power to change the deal, once it's done, to their advantage - why on earth wouldn't they? Altruism ?

As I’ve mentioned. A team like Bristol City could get promotion and then vote for something that fucks over the teams that have been in the PL for decades. The proposals doesn’t just include the top 6, it includes teams that have made up the PL for a long time.

How would you like it if Bolton voted to f*** over Orient this season, they go up and Orient stay mid table for the next 5 years?

What is this about for you? The money for the EFL? As an Orient fan, why do you care about what the PL get up to?

I'll make it simple for you - since it seems you need that.

As an Orient fan, I'm against anything that threatens the Orient's continued existence. For example, one wish that the big 6 have made no bones about wanting is the introduction of B teams into the Football League (see the comments by Man City's Chairman only the other week). Never mind the sporting integrity aspect of this - that's bad enough - it also facilitates the bigger clubs hoarding young players and concentrating even more of the money (and therefore power) into their hands. There's little enough trickle down as it stands - you want to exacerbate the situation even more by allowing Chelsea to hoover up all the young talent in London so that LOFC never get to discover/develop/sell on ?? You want to close off that possible door to smaller clubs (like LOFC) gaining much needed funds?

Are you so stupid as to not see that allowing the clubs at the very top to dictate rules of competitions - which clubs must be allowed into the leagues - which clubs are to be designated as "feeder" outfits, for example, will have no effect on Leyton Orient? Seriously?

And while we're at it - what is the source of your rather touching faith that the big 6 would continue to show such generosity towards the rest of the football league when they don't have to?

Again, I'll ask you the question - why is it so important to the Big 6 to change the voting structure ? The current structure is in place to stop a handful of teams f*cking over the rest - why on Earth do you support changing it to allow just 6 clubs to dictate ALL rules and terms to the rest of the game - at all levels of the whole pyramid, not just the EPL. I'm fascinated to hear why you think that's a good idea.

Judging by what you've written before, simple is something you struggle to do.

Again, seeing as you've struggled to explain something so "simple". How does the longest serving PL clubs having increased voting rights on PL matters actually effect Leyton Orient? The entire football league would have to vote on anything that affects the entire football league. These are proposals that the FA, the EFL and the PL all have to agree on. To put it very simply for you, 6 Premier League teams will not get the deciding vote on things that affect the whole football pyramid.

How can Chelsea hoover up ALL the talent in London? You think Spurs and Arsenal won't be looking to get those players either? What about the other 10 London clubs?

You talk about stupidity when you're the one who fails to understand the basics of the football pyramid and how the voting system works. When the EFL were voting on the TV rights during the pandemic, where were United, Liverpool and Arsenal's votes on the matter? I'll put it simply for you, they didn't get a vote on it because it was an EFL matter. You can keep throwing insults around all you want but you're making yourself look very silly with your lack of understanding about basic things.

Again, it isn't "the big 6", it's the teams who have spent the longest in the PL getting more of a say on matters that have an effect on the PL. Teams including West Ham, Everton and Southampton. Possibly more but not confirmed. The reason why is because teams like Bristol City, Brentford, Millwall or Luton (who have never played in the PL) would get an equal say in the long term running of the PL when they're likely to be in it, relgated and never seen again.

To summarise for your simple mind. The top 6 clubs will not be in control of the entire football pyramid under these proposals. They want more rights for PL matters.

FWIW, I'm completely against the B teams. I'm against the charity shield going. I'm against the League Cup being completely scrapped.