Independent Leyton Orient Forum

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:19 am ...the campaign is to draw attention to it, and for that situation to change

I understand that, but how to change it? How do you stop racists being racist? Sure, you can legislate, but there are many forms of racism that cannot be.

Some of the Black Lives Matters aims such as defunding and eventually abolishing the police https://blacklivesmatter.com/defundthepolice/ are not supported by a majority of people. The increased policing of black areas came about as a means of protecting black communities.

I read this article which discusses how to stop being racist but it depends on the individual wanting to not be racist https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/articl ... ist_in_you

Essentially, egalitarianism is the key. If we believe all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities, the rest will follow (hopefully)..

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:38 am

Beradogs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:31 am

The Mindsweep wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:38 am People get frightened when it's not them that get highlighted. Black people are not treated equally in society and that's a fact but there is not a finite amout of equality around, no one loses. Women got the vote, men didn't lose out.

Is it easier being black skinned or white in society?

White. But we all know that. It’s middle class whites and woke millennials driving this agenda. They can’t win elections but they are using black lives matter as a political tool. Do you honestly think they care about blacks on housing estates in inner cities. They would run a mile if they saw one. Cnuts.

Beradogs would you say England is a racist country?

My wife is non white and we live in a very local area in the arse end of nowhere and the people could not be any more friendly. Have never experienced anything even close to racism. I have lived in 5 different countries and the Uk is by far the most tolerant. Before anyone says, being married to a BAME doesn’t give me a right to know what they go through. No numnuts, it’s just our experience. You can only comment about you’re own experiences. The question should be refrained anyway, Would you rather be born rich or poor not black or white. It’s a poverty and the lack of opportunities/ lack of opportunities for black people question not a skin colour question. Would I rather be born as jay z or me. Jay z please. 99% of People would answer the same. The working class of all colours are the ones being shafted. The government or more especially the central banks are the ones that need to be taken down not one group of working class pitted against another. It’s tragic. Those Burnley lads that did that banner. How do you think they feel. Probably all they ever hear from the London media is how bad it is for BAME and these people have had there towns decimated by closure of industry and have nothing as well. Who speaks for them. It ain’t labour anymore hence them turning to the tories and the tories don’t give a flying figg about them either.

RientO wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:10 am

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:19 am ...the campaign is to draw attention to it, and for that situation to change

Essentially, egalitarianism is the key. If we believe all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities, the rest will follow (hopefully)..

Well, yes, that is the key. But it's clearly too hard for people to understand or to do, see: this board.

Half the battle is ego. All the people who spout 'All lives matter' might as well be crying 'well, what about me?'. It's not all about you, in fact the only way it is about you is because you need to change and need to accept that you might be part of the problem. But it's not easy for people to accept there's an issue and especially that they might have some part to play. Unfortunately, it's just beyond most peoples mental capability to even put themselves in others shoes, never mind accept that they might have to accept giving BAME people an equal platform.

Beradogs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:21 am

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:38 am

Beradogs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:31 am

White. But we all know that. It’s middle class whites and woke millennials driving this agenda. They can’t win elections but they are using black lives matter as a political tool. Do you honestly think they care about blacks on housing estates in inner cities. They would run a mile if they saw one. Cnuts.

Beradogs would you say England is a racist country?

My wife is non white and we live in a very local area in the arse end of nowhere and the people could not be any more friendly. Have never experienced anything even close to racism. I have lived in 5 different countries and the Uk is by far the most tolerant. Before anyone says, being married to a BAME doesn’t give me a right to know what they go through. No numnuts, it’s just our experience. You can only comment about you’re own experiences. The question should be refrained anyway, Would you rather be born rich or poor not black or white. It’s a poverty and the lack of opportunities/ lack of opportunities for black people question not a skin colour question. Would I rather be born as jay z or me. Jay z please. 99% of People would answer the same. The working class of all colours are the ones being shafted. The government or more especially the central banks are the ones that need to be taken down not one group of working class pitted against another. It’s tragic. Those Burnley lads that did that banner. How do you think they feel. Probably all they ever hear from the London media is how bad it is for BAME and these people have had there towns decimated by closure of industry and have nothing as well. Who speaks for them. It ain’t labour anymore hence them turning to the tories and the tories don’t give a flying figg about them either.

I agree that its the poor that get stiffed, regardless of skin colour. And that poverty is the root cause of most of the social issues that black people face.

But you are missing a very obvious point that, as a percentage, you are much more likely to live in poverty if you are BAME compared with if you are white. To me, it's pretty black and white (pun intended), unless you believe that the reason more BAME people live in poverty is because of inbuilt characteristics (i.e. laziness, intelligence, etc..), and i'm sure you dont, then it's a societal problem. Right?

If it's all down to skin colour how does one account for vast
educational/economic etc variations between Black Carribean and Black African communities?

Or Indian and Bangladedhi for example?

Or Indian Vs Black Carribean?

Beradogs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:21 am

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:38 am

Beradogs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:31 am

White. But we all know that. It’s middle class whites and woke millennials driving this agenda. They can’t win elections but they are using black lives matter as a political tool. Do you honestly think they care about blacks on housing estates in inner cities. They would run a mile if they saw one. Cnuts.

Beradogs would you say England is a racist country?

My wife is non white and we live in a very local area in the arse end of nowhere and the people could not be any more friendly. Have never experienced anything even close to racism. I have lived in 5 different countries and the Uk is by far the most tolerant. Before anyone says, being married to a BAME doesn’t give me a right to know what they go through. No numnuts, it’s just our experience. You can only comment about you’re own experiences. The question should be refrained anyway, Would you rather be born rich or poor not black or white. It’s a poverty and the lack of opportunities/ lack of opportunities for black people question not a skin colour question. Would I rather be born as jay z or me. Jay z please. 99% of People would answer the same. The working class of all colours are the ones being shafted. The government or more especially the central banks are the ones that need to be taken down not one group of working class pitted against another. It’s tragic. Those Burnley lads that did that banner. How do you think they feel. Probably all they ever hear from the London media is how bad it is for BAME and these people have had there towns decimated by closure of industry and have nothing as well. Who speaks for them. It ain’t labour anymore hence them turning to the tories and the tories don’t give a flying figg about them either.

So you think England isn't a racist country, but everyone here is racist? (You've said that more than once).

I don't think anyone is saying 'would it be better to be a black billionaire or a regular white guy?' seriously, are they. No one is saying every single black person in the UK or US is worse off in every scenario, but they are saying they are facing more racism than white people. That's the difference.

To give you a question back then; would you rather be in poverty and white in the UK or in poverty and black in the UK? Would you say that is an equal field?

Lastly you say we are more tolerant here than other places, which is obviously true, and that poverty is the real issue - and I agree it is a massive part of it. However, many in the UK aren't in poverty and I'd say are in less poverty than other nations so why does it matter, shouldn't we just be pleased where we are?

That ridiculous rhetoric is how you sound when you say how tolerant the UK is with racism.

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:31 am If it's all down to skin colour how does one account for vast
educational/economic etc variations between Black Carribean and Black African communities?

Or Indian and Bangladedhi for example?

Or Indian Vs Black Carribean?

No one is saying it is all down to skin colour.

You've just illustrated why using 'BAME' is an imperfect term. I'm sure the type of bigotry Priti Patel experienced growing up was very different to that of David Lammy.

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:37 am

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:31 am If it's all down to skin colour how does one account for vast
educational/economic etc variations between Black Carribean and Black African communities?

Or Indian and Bangladedhi for example?

Or Indian Vs Black Carribean?

No one is saying it is all down to skin colour.

You've just illustrated why using 'BAME' is an imperfect term. I'm sure the type of bigotry Priti Patel experienced growing up was very different to that of David Lammy.

Indeed, but how do you account for inter ethnic differences then?

Comparing us to countries, who make monkey noises at black players, isn't exactly a yardstick of how racist we are as a country.

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:38 am

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:37 am

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:31 am If it's all down to skin colour how does one account for vast
educational/economic etc variations between Black Carribean and Black African communities?

Or Indian and Bangladedhi for example?

Or Indian Vs Black Carribean?

No one is saying it is all down to skin colour.

You've just illustrated why using 'BAME' is an imperfect term. I'm sure the type of bigotry Priti Patel experienced growing up was very different to that of David Lammy.

Indeed, but how do you account for inter ethnic differences then?

Unless you're saying racism doesn't exist there (which I know you are not, but simply pointing out the differences) then I'd say the burden of proof is on you here. Why do you think so?

Oxford university just announced that 25% of last years intake were BAME. Asians overrepresented and black people a little under. A tiny fraction of that intake were from the north/north east. The white working class/working class from the north barely represented at all. The majority of the intake were from private schools. This is not about skin colour, it’s just not. It’s about the black and white working class having no opportunity and the media have pitted both against each other. It’s all Very sad.

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:42 am

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:38 am

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:37 am

No one is saying it is all down to skin colour.

You've just illustrated why using 'BAME' is an imperfect term. I'm sure the type of bigotry Priti Patel experienced growing up was very different to that of David Lammy.

Indeed, but how do you account for inter ethnic differences then?

Unless you're saying racism doesn't exist there (which I know you are not, but simply pointing out the differences) then I'd say the burden of proof is on you here. Why do you think so?

I've no idea hence why I'm asking, any ideas?

Beradogs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:42 am Oxford university just announced that 25% of last years intake were BAME. Asians overrepresented and black people a little under. A tiny fraction of that intake were from the north/north east. The white working class/working class from the north barely represented at all. The majority of the intake were from private schools. This is not about skin colour, it’s just not. It’s about the black and white working class having no opportunity and the media have pitted both against each other. It’s all Very sad.

That definitely cancels out all of the clear statistics backing up racism in the UK. Thank you.

I said everyone is a little racist to wind you up. The left hate it, drives them potty and I get to giggle. It’s all good.

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:45 am

Beradogs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:42 am Oxford university just announced that 25% of last years intake were BAME. Asians overrepresented and black people a little under. A tiny fraction of that intake were from the north/north east. The white working class/working class from the north barely represented at all. The majority of the intake were from private schools. This is not about skin colour, it’s just not. It’s about the black and white working class having no opportunity and the media have pitted both against each other. It’s all Very sad.

That definitely cancels out all of the clear statistics backing up racism in the UK. Thank you.

What are you waffling on about. We are probably pretty close economically but the left can’t help going on crusades about race, it drives them inside out, me, i just don’t care enough about humans to bother. I would rather adopt a hamster.

The point I'm making is because you can find some examples where people are not discriminated within does not answer the cases where they very clearly are.

Of course all lives matter, and I doubt you would encounter a black person who would dispute that. Certainly none that I know.
It has been stated many times that whilst this is 'pro-black', it is not 'anti-white'.

It was unnecessary and insulting during the current climate for the Burnley fans to fly that flag, whilst players were wearing BLM shirts on the pitch, it smacks of disregard to the concerns and fears of the black communities. These (no doubt) white fans have no idea how it feels to live as a minority group.

Citing it as a 'class problem'; although that doesn't tell the full story; there is however an element of truth in that to a degree. As an example:
My sister works in an (expensive) fee-paying school, costing thousands of pounds a year (in Romford)

90% of the pupils are black, and you would describe the parents very much as working class.
They live in areas like Dagenham/Rush-Green, but have chosen to spend their money on their children's education, rather than buying flash houses and renting BMWs and Audis, unlike so many in the white communities who are now shouting "what about us?", like these Burnley fans.

No doubt these parents are second or third generation immigrants, and they have chosen to do their best in order to move their lives, and the lives of the children forward. It seems clear that no-one hand them anything on a plate.

I believe there are opportunities for All in this country, including the BAME communities, but attitude also counts for something, too. I have little doubt that these parents would wholeheartedly agree.

When in the past my attitude stunk, my life was sh*t too. Clearly, the parents of the children of this school have an impeccable attitude. It seems unlikely that statues in the UK will be keeping them awake at night, they are too busy living, and improving, their lives in the UK to worry about artefacts.

Whilst I'm not disputing that prejudice does exist, and we need to eradicate this immediately, it is also down to the individual to improve their own life, as these black families have stepped up and done to excellent effect.

I'll now await a torrent of abuse from the Marxists on here.

Beradogs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:50 am

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:45 am

Beradogs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:42 am Oxford university just announced that 25% of last years intake were BAME. Asians overrepresented and black people a little under. A tiny fraction of that intake were from the north/north east. The white working class/working class from the north barely represented at all. The majority of the intake were from private schools. This is not about skin colour, it’s just not. It’s about the black and white working class having no opportunity and the media have pitted both against each other. It’s all Very sad.

That definitely cancels out all of the clear statistics backing up racism in the UK. Thank you.

What are you waffling on about. We are probably pretty close economically but the left can’t help going on crusades about race, it drives them inside out, me, i just don’t care enough about humans to bother. I would rather adopt a hamster.

Fair enough, so stop posting your bilge on a subject that you don't care about.

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:32 am

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:19 am

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:59 am White lives matter = racist
Black lives matter = not racist

It’s truly baffling how people can’t notice the inconsistencies in their position

Im not sure if you genuinely dont know, or are just being a tw*t.......I suspect youre intelligent enough to know, so its the latter

BLM doesnt mean all lives dont matter....of course they do, its to draw attention to the fact black people suffer racism still in 2020, in all sorts of ways in everyday life, and the campaign is to draw attention to it, and for that situation to change

Got it, so a fly past with a banner stating "Jewish Lives Matter" would be alright in the current climate as it draws attention to the racism they receive in every day life?

Are you claiming that Jewish people have never protested &
been supported by others ?

Genuinely ?

How about white Irish Catholic lives like Francis Rowntree , Seamus Duffy
or even Aidan McAnespie , & would it be fair for those to protest at there treatment ?

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:15 pm

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:32 am

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:19 am

Im not sure if you genuinely dont know, or are just being a tw*t.......I suspect youre intelligent enough to know, so its the latter

BLM doesnt mean all lives dont matter....of course they do, its to draw attention to the fact black people suffer racism still in 2020, in all sorts of ways in everyday life, and the campaign is to draw attention to it, and for that situation to change

Got it, so a fly past with a banner stating "Jewish Lives Matter" would be alright in the current climate as it draws attention to the racism they receive in every day life?

Are you claiming that Jewish people have never protested &
been supported by others ?

Genuinely ?

How about white Irish Catholic lives like Francis Rowntree , Seamus Duffy
or even Aidan McAnespie , & would it be fair for those to protest at there treatment ?

No, clearly

Beradogs wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:42 am Oxford university just announced that 25% of last years intake were BAME. Asians overrepresented and black people a little under. A tiny fraction of that intake were from the north/north east. The white working class/working class from the north barely represented at all. The majority of the intake were from private schools. This is not about skin colour, it’s just not. It’s about the black and white working class having no opportunity and the media have pitted both against each other. It’s all Very sad.

This guy gets it

Back to the flying of the banner over Burnley. As Mikero has already pointed out, this can only be seen as a racist response to BLM. It's the simplest - and for many of the racists "keep it simple" is best - "argument" to hit back at BLM with. BLM is here because black minorities aren't treated the same as white. There is no need for a "white lives, or, All lives matter" movement and no need for that banner over Burnley - unless of course you're just opposed to BLM because you're a racist.

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:19 pm

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:15 pm

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:32 am
Got it, so a fly past with a banner stating "Jewish Lives Matter" would be alright in the current climate as it draws attention to the racism they receive in every day life?

Are you claiming that Jewish people have never protested &
been supported by others ?

Genuinely ?

How about white Irish Catholic lives like Francis Rowntree , Seamus Duffy
or even Aidan McAnespie , & would it be fair for those to protest at there treatment ?

No, clearly

Well it really wasnt that clear fella

Lots of Ethiopian Jewish in the world .

Try catch the Bigots with simpler stuff
Is the way i tend to go.

Its far less time consuming & puts their bigotry beyond doubt.

So cute that 'racism is a bit sh*t mate, look at all these stats that prove that for some people it makes for a huge disadvantage' is met by 'well, hang about chief!' at every opportunity.

We really are losing this battle and will continue to.