Topple the Racists website

[Disoriented]

It would help , I believe, if successful people of different ethnicity praised the UK for encouraging diversity and opportunity in the workplace. Something positive.
It’s clearly possible to succeed in the UK from whatever background you come from. There is evidence all around. Doctors , dentists , surgeons, musicians, sports stars , politicians , lawyers, accountants. The list is endless and I don’t expect many are complaining.
They need to come forward and give a different viewpoint.

Far too sensible a post for this board Georgey.

[Mistadobalina]

I think one of the nuances being lost in this discussion about race in the UK is that, unlike the states, there isn't a racial binary of white and non-white. Being black in America means being African American, even if you're background is Ghanian, Somalian or South African. That's because theirs is a society founded on differences between races.

It isn't denying racism exists here to say that the difference in outcomes between different BAME group is enormous. That goes from wealth, earnings, educational attainment, numbers going onto universities etc. Unpicking that becomes incredibly difficult as a conversation as there is an implied cultural 'credit' to backgrounds that do well and a critique of those that don't. You need to unpick which groups moved where and when to understand it truly, but as long as we get stuck on a racial binary, then, as I've said in other threads, kids from poor white backgrounds are going to struggle with the assertiveness of a generalised BAME movement of anti privilege when they see absolutely no privilege dividend. White working class boys, as a cohort, struggle at school more than pretty much any other group in England. Their life prospects are generally horrible.

The left is failing miserably to create a narrative that can speak to those people. When they see an intellectual class that is pretty much synonymous with the left these days, they see people speaking (rightly) with an absolute passion about racial injustice that then fails to generate that same passion about more general economic injustice. I say this as a staunch pro-European, but the reaction to the Brexit vote (have to say including from me) was appalling. For large parts of white working class England, it was a democratic finger up at the ruling and intellectual class, and, unlike with the response now to these protests of 'we're listening', it was basically 'you're morons'.

As a whole, I worry that when the left is perceived to put identity above class as the primary driver of its movement, in part because racism is a much easier ill to articulate opposition to, it will have the counter-productive effect of entrenching racial difference. Those largely white working class communities outside of the major cities (and how urban a community is a massive driver of improvement in material circumstance these days) will start to define themselves more and more along racial/nationalist lines. That's a tragedy, because your Tories/Farages/Cummings despise those people they're coopting, much like the English ruling class has always despised working people.

[PoliticOs]

PoliticOs

All good points and I did say that it wasn’t perfect. But where are the figures showing how many black people applied for these jobs.
If we talk about football managers , how many English managers are there ? Presumably a discussion about racism is not just about colour. There are few successful football managers. There have been black football managers and still are but they have not been good enough yet to manage a top team. But then in recent years , nor have English managers.I suspect that will change for both.
There are black heads of schools , the Mayor of London is black as is the Home Secretary.
But to prove that black people are not given equal opportunities in the workplace needs to be backed up with numbers.Lets see the list of applicants for these top jobs. How diverse is the list. We can only guess.
I can only comment on my racial experiences and I live in the greatest multicultural city in the world. We usually only hear complaints from one side of the argument, but I know that there are more integrated and successful people of different race out there than care to speak.

George no one is denying that people CAN achieve, it is about if enough are proportionately. If the Labour Party appointed a Jewish leader tomorrow would that cancel our any issues of antisemitism?

Can you see how black people feeling they can't or shouldn't apply for these jobs is just as big an issue as them applying and not being successful?
But, as you want some sort of numbers; Oxford Uni did a large research project a couple of years ago, sending our applications for a whole host of jobs under the guise of different nationalities. Black and South Asian applicants had to apply for 80% more jobs to receive a positive response than a white British person. There are loads of numbers for this. Maybe have a research during this period of collective learning?

Regarding black managers (FYI black managers can also be English, so you know) - how are they going to reach the top if they aren't getting lower level positions to build up experience? 11 of the Premier League are from the UK currently. Darren Moore has a 44% win rate, Sam Allardyce 39.4%. Chris Powell has a 37% win rate, so does Mark Hughes. MH never struggled for roles, Allardyce never struggled for roles. But anyway, if you want the numbers, they are out there! Please go look for them and please don't use 'well some people do fine so there can't be a problem' as a cruch.

As you say, we aren't perfect. Why not focus on improvement of where we are poor rather than just celebrating individual successes?

[PoliticOs]

It would help , I believe, if successful people of different ethnicity praised the UK for encouraging diversity and opportunity in the workplace. Something positive.
It’s clearly possible to succeed in the UK from whatever background you come from. There is evidence all around. Doctors , dentists , surgeons, musicians, sports stars , politicians , lawyers, accountants. The list is endless and I don’t expect many are complaining.
They need to come forward and give a different viewpoint.

Far too sensible a post for this board Georgey.

What is the 'different viewpoint', Disoriented?

And in answer to your question, no, of course I don't believe we have a meritocracy.

[PoliticOs]

I think one of the nuances being lost in this discussion about race in the UK is that, unlike the states, there isn't a racial binary of white and non-white. Being black in America means being African American, even if you're background is Ghanian, Somalian or South African. That's because theirs is a society founded on differences between races.

It isn't denying racism exists here to say that the difference in outcomes between different BAME group is enormous. That goes from wealth, earnings, educational attainment, numbers going onto universities etc. Unpicking that becomes incredibly difficult as a conversation as there is an implied cultural 'credit' to backgrounds that do well and a critique of those that don't. You need to unpick which groups moved where and when to understand it truly, but as long as we get stuck on a racial binary, then, as I've said in other threads, kids from poor white backgrounds are going to struggle with the assertiveness of a generalised BAME movement of anti privilege when they see absolutely no privilege dividend. White working class boys, as a cohort, struggle at school more than pretty much any other group in England. Their life prospects are generally horrible.

The left is failing miserably to create a narrative that can speak to those people. When they see an intellectual class that is pretty much synonymous with the left these days, they see people speaking (rightly) with an absolute passion about racial injustice that then fails to generate that same passion about more general economic injustice. I say this as a staunch pro-European, but the reaction to the Brexit vote (have to say including from me) was appalling. For large parts of white working class England, it was a democratic finger up at the ruling and intellectual class, and, unlike with the response now to these protests of 'we're listening', it was basically 'you're morons'.

As a whole, I worry that when the left is perceived to put identity above class as the primary driver of its movement, in part because racism is a much easier ill to articulate opposition to, it will have the counter-productive effect of entrenching racial difference. Those largely white working class communities outside of the major cities (and how urban a community is a massive driver of improvement in material circumstance these days) will start to define themselves more and more along racial/nationalist lines. That's a tragedy, because your Tories/Farages/Cummings despise those people they're coopting, much like the English ruling class has always despised working people.

I think much of it comes down to the fact so many people in this country have such an easy to hit nerve when it comes down to these things that holding up the collective mirror, something only the left is doing, is going to disengage people.

Look on this board even - people desperately scrambling to justify how tolerant we are, how they aren't racist, how some people get on just fine thank you very much. We seem to have an allergy here of being told these things. Look at the fury when Stormzy said what he did last year. People are so quick to defend themselves (when they often do not need to) that they stop listening. The right side politicians know this and play on this and expertly penetrate those very people for their gain, but not for the gain of those they are grabbing.

Some Tory MP tweet; The left say the UK is racist. I say we are one of the most tolerant nations on the planet and the vast majority of Brits are welcoming!


Some Labour MP tweet; We have an issue of entrenched racism in the UK within our institutions that it is our duty to stamp out. We must do and be better.


That sort of ambiguity grabs hold of them. It doesn't make them feel lectured to so although Tory tweet exists only to backslap and rile, it is much more welcome than the second tweet calling for change as it makes people feel dictated to. People that are undecided and not racist will be drawn to the first as it fits how they see things, but doesn't really do anything. It's super tricky now.

[George M]

It is true. As I said earlier , we need an honest discussion about the extent and truth about inequality without being called a racist. Happily no one here has stooped to those depths.
But your reading of my situation about my job , my cricket club , and the schools in my area raise an interesting point. In that case , I have made you aware of a positive example highlighting equality. Are we to discount that because it negates some of the arguments.
Had I said that I work in an all white environment, play cricket at a club with only 2 Asian / Afro Caribbean Members , and live next door to a private school made up predominantly with white English kids , that would have been jumped on as an example of inequality. The discussion needs to be balanced and that’s what is lacking.

[George M]

Also , I didn’t say Black managers won’t be English, but I agree that I didn’t highlight that fact. I think we are all adult enough to realise that this is a black skin colour issue and not a place of birth problem

[PoliticOs]

We can have a discussion about inequality AND call people racist, if they are being racist. That's fine to do.

I'm not sure the examples you've given negates the issue, no. It can be examples of equality whilst inequality also exists. The only way that would negate my argument is if my argument was; 'there is zero examples of equality in the UK'.

What do you think isn't balanced about the discussion? That people aren't mentioning positives enough? For a football example if we lost 45 of 46 games next season, winning one, and I argue 'Ross Embleton is great at winning games! He won a game in September 1-0 Vs Newport. So that is something we should celebrate'. Would you see that as balanced or a bit silly?

[George M]

Sorry , I didn’t mean that the discussion on the board isn’t balanced. It is. I meant generally

[PoliticOs]

I did think you meant generally. What sort of balance to you want? You agree inequality is an issue and we could be better, so why would exceptions to the statistics provide balance? They wouldn't. They'd be exceptions.

[George M]

Which it why it is such a difficult issue. I started by saying that we should not compare the Racial problems in America and how they choose to deal with them , with what are a completely different set of dynamics in the UK. My view is that we should be proud of our multicultural society albeit that we still have a way to go

[George M]

Thanks for your thoughts , PoliticOs , they are both reasonable and interesting

[Beradogs]

For the most part Asians have thrived in the UK and last time I looked they were not white. Go to the posh schools in Woodford and see the make up now. Woodford county high must be 50% plus Asian. Why can the Asians do so well and the blacks less so. The Asians were conspicuous by their absence at the BAME marches. Don’t they suffer racism. It’s a genuine question.

[PoliticOs]

They do. It is why BAME is a really imperfect term as the experience of different races within that umbrella is obviously completely unique. The experience and racism growing up Priti Patel would have experienced would likely be different to that of David Lammy.

Do you not think if anything Beradogs, your post backs up the need for BLM?

If you are genuinely interested there is a lot of material you can read online about this. Specify in your google search (i.e don't use 'BAME') and you'll find lots.

[Max B Gold]

For the most part Asians have thrived in the UK and last time I looked they were not white. Go to the posh schools in Woodford and see the make up now. Woodford county high must be 50% plus Asian. Why can the Asians do so well and the blacks less so. The Asians were conspicuous by their absence at the BAME marches. Don’t they suffer racism. It’s a genuine question.

Your last question is a stupid one not a serious one.

Your first question is more interesting although I wouldn't lump all Asians" together in the clumsy way you have and say they are all more successful than black people because there are sub groups within that who are not.

As to why that is, I'm sure you are well able to research it yourself and obtain the insight you currently lack.

But will you? Are you happier using lazy stereotypes and anecdotes to support your prejudices or do you really want to help in the struggle for a better more informed society?

Please let us know what your research uncovers in due course.

[Disoriented]

It would help , I believe, if successful people of different ethnicity praised the UK for encouraging diversity and opportunity in the workplace. Something positive.
It’s clearly possible to succeed in the UK from whatever background you come from. There is evidence all around. Doctors , dentists , surgeons, musicians, sports stars , politicians , lawyers, accountants. The list is endless and I don’t expect many are complaining.
They need to come forward and give a different viewpoint.

Far too sensible a post for this board Georgey.

What is the 'different viewpoint', Disoriented?

And in answer to your question, no, of course I don't believe we have a meritocracy.

1. Ask George
2. Why not?

[PoliticOs]

1. I figured because you agreed with the post you maybe agreed with that sentiment. Not trying to do a 'gotcha', just wondering why you'd think that.
2. Well, Boris Johnson is the Prime Minister for one. Is he our best? Matt Hancock, Dominic Raab, Iain Duncan Smith, Jacob Rees Mogg? The biggest indicator on if you are going to be wealthy or not is if your parents are wealthy or not. That's not a meritocracy. I

[Dohnut]

It seems very much like a campaign against statues.

Seems that way. A serious issue hijacked in such a way that it diverts attention. The rioters are not doing the campaign much good either.

[Dohnut]

1. I figured because you agreed with the post you maybe agreed with that sentiment. Not trying to do a 'gotcha', just wondering why you'd think that.
2. Well, Boris Johnson is the Prime Minister for one. Is he our best? Matt Hancock, Dominic Raab, Iain Duncan Smith, Jacob Rees Mogg? The biggest indicator on if you are going to be wealthy or not is if your parents are wealthy or not. That's not a meritocracy. I

Wilson, Heath, Callaghan, Thatcher, Major. 5 recent’ish Prime Ministers who never went to Fee paying schools. Proof that it is possible to get to the top job without going to Eton, Harrow and the like. Though records suggest it does help.

If you have the brains, passion, energy you can get to the top. Something Mogg, Raab, Hancock have yet to do.

[PoliticOs]

That's not the only version of privilege though, is it?

I agree that if you have the 'brains, passion and energy' you CAN get to the top. Any one can. But is it easier for a white male child of two Doctors living in Cambridge, in a house owned outright, going to a fee paying elite school in a stable environment or is it easier for a black female kid living in Leyton, going to a comprehensive, whose parents are cleaners and surviving with income support?

As you've conceded yourself 'records suggest it does help'.

NO ONE is saying it is impossible for the child in Leyton mentioned above. But they are saying it is significantly stacked against them. That is why when people like George above say they have positive examples its all a little redundant. Going on about the examples that have made it can often camouflage the issues. I know you like to come at everything from a 'unique' viewpoint, but can you argue any of what I've written here at all?

[PoliticOs]

P.S WIlson went to grammar school then Oxford, Heath went to grammar school then Oxford, Callaghan went to grammar school and got into Oxford, Thatcher went to a grammar school then Oxford and Major went to grammar school, but happily for diversity purposes, not Oxford.

[Ornchurch]

But is it easier for a black male child of a top MP living in Hackney, in a million pound house owned outright, going to a fee paying school or is it easier for a white kid living in Leyton, going to a comprehensive, whose parents are cleaners and surviving with income support?

[PoliticOs]

In that scenario it would be likely to be easier in nearly every way for the black child. I’m sure you probably expected me to answer different, Ornchurch.

Now then in response; there is a black child living in Leyton, going to a comprehensive, who parents are cleaners and surviving with income support or a white child with the exact same background...

...who is more likely to find more prejudice in the UK or find it harder? Be honest.

[BiggsyMalone]

No one is disputing poor white people suffer. Poor white people just don't suffer on the basis of their skin colour. This country has a huge class divide and a fractured working class because a lot of them have been persuaded by racist ideology. Akala speaks very well on this topic.

[E10EU]

If you can, watch the programme: "Unwanted: The secret Windrush files". It was on BBC2 tonight but was made in 2019.

A real eye opener, showing beyond doubt just how entrenched and blatant the racism operated by governments (of all parties!) in this country!
It wasn't just something about the one boat load but systemic.
Immigrants were needed to rebuild this country after the war but governments really wanted white immigrants (even if they were war criminals).