Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Posted: **Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:15 pm**

EH16 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:03 pm
PAM wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:53 pm Ignoring the vote of 321 MPs = Dictstorship

Ignoring the vote of 17,410,742 voters = Meh

#LeaveMeansLeave #CleanBreakBrexit
I knew somebody would bring up this nonsense again. The leave voters aren't being ignored at all. We are leaving, the debate is about how we do so. No one has suggested ignoring the leave vote UNLESS the voters vote again to over turn it. THAT is democratic. Ignoring laws you don't like ISN'T.

I thought the hashtags would give it away. I was wrong

Posted: **Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:31 pm**

BoniO wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:01 pm
Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:58 am .... What you mean like Nazi Germany? Surely not.
WTF has that got to do with anything?

It's got to do with the ridiculous suggestion that 'we're on our way to a dictatorship'.
So what's with all this 'WTF'? Go take a sedative.

Posted: **Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:47 pm**

Remainer MPs discussed Brexit delay date with EU before passing bill. Doesn't seem right to me.

Posted: **Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:54 pm**

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:31 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:01 pm
Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:58 am .... What you mean like Nazi Germany? Surely not.
WTF has that got to do with anything?
It's got to do with the ridiculous suggestion that 'we're on our way to a dictatorship'.
So what's with all this 'WTF'? Go take a sedative.

The WTF was in incredulity that you threw Nazi Germany into the mix. That was somewhat out of context.

Posted: **Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:15 pm**

If you read between the lines, it was a tongue in cheek reply to what 'must' have been a tongue in cheek suggestion that we are veering towards a dictatorship.

Posted: **Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:25 pm**

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:48 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:34 pm
Ornchurch wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:27 pm The way that the MPs of all parties have dealt with Brexit since the referendum is killing democracy in this country.

I can't see myself voting again given the respect that they shown the electorate.
It's the new "spin" of late that all our Brexit woes are down to the behaviour of MP's whereas the blame really lies squarely on the shoulders of the Conservative Party and this government. That the Tories are to blame is the view of many, including many Tory MP's.
You believe that. I'll stick to my opinion.

Brexit, IMO, is a bigger issue than party politics and all parties should have worked together to get the best deal for the country. Not spend years arguing, plotting and sabotaging to stop it happening for their own reasons.

The EU don't have to negotiate with us as Parliament Is full of self serving, incompetent tossers who don't know how to stand up for this country.

Yes, they are called conservative politicians.

Posted: **Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:32 pm**

"Every nation gets the government it deserves"

Joseph de Maistre

Posted: **Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:16 pm**

"all parties should have worked together to get the best deal for the country"

Who you blame for this not happening? The PM returned from the EU with the best deal she could get for the country and had all of her MPs voted for it it would have gone through years ago. It failed because her right wing thought it was not 'brexity' enough and it also did not meet the criteria the opposition had set out.

The lack of consultation was stunning, to not even talk to your own party is idiotic, they are after all the people who would have to approve it.

Mikero

Posted: **Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:20 pm**

Triggering Article 50 without a plan was a disaster.

Getting into bed with the DUP, selling the party's soul to Satin.

David Cameron has alot to answer for calling the referendum in the first place.

How many foreign countries interfered in Brexit?
I guarantee you that Russia, Israel, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Jordan and some African nations were involved. Dirty money and online misinformation just like they did with the US election.

Posted: **Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:23 pm**

Mikero wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:16 pm "all parties should have worked together to get the best deal for the country"

Who you blame for this not happening? The PM returned from the EU with the best deal she could get for the country and had all of her MPs voted for it it would have gone through years ago. It failed because her right wing thought it was not 'brexity' enough and it also did not meet the criteria the opposition had set out.

The lack of consultation was stunning, to not even talk to your own party is idiotic, they are after all the people who would have to approve it.

Mikero

Incorrect.

TM did not have a majority and relied on the DUP to support her minority government in parliament. It was them and the ERG group who could not support her so called "deal".

For the DUP because of the backstop and supposed different treatment from the rest of "Britain".

For the ERG they would be bound to EU rules and regulations on trade and services. Especially services - the new EU laws coming into play in January which makes a start on outlawing the use of tax havens to avoid taxes.

A lot of self interest in that for right wing offshore "entreprenuerial" right wing Tories, hedge funds and the tax dodging money laundering banks.

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:50 am**

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:25 pm
Ornchurch wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:48 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:34 pm

It's the new "spin" of late that all our Brexit woes are down to the behaviour of MP's whereas the blame really lies squarely on the shoulders of the Conservative Party and this government. That the Tories are to blame is the view of many, including many Tory MP's.
You believe that. I'll stick to my opinion.

Brexit, IMO, is a bigger issue than party politics and all parties should have worked together to get the best deal for the country. Not spend years arguing, plotting and sabotaging to stop it happening for their own reasons.

The EU don't have to negotiate with us as Parliament Is full of self serving, incompetent tossers who don't know how to stand up for this country.
Yes, they are called conservative politicians.

This is a perfect example of party politic bias that is a major part of the issue.

IF Labour were in charge in this position, although they probably wouldn't have held a referendum in the first place, would the exit have been handled any more efficiently?

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:21 am**

BoniO wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:34 pm
Ornchurch wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:27 pm The way that the MPs of all parties have dealt with Brexit since the referendum is killing democracy in this country.

I can't see myself voting again given the respect that they shown the electorate.
It's the new "spin" of late that all our Brexit woes are down to the behaviour of MP's whereas the blame really lies squarely on the shoulders of the Conservative Party and this government. That the Tories are to blame is the view of many, including many Tory MP's.

Utter bollocks. Am I the only one left on this board with any common f*cking sense?

Roll on Brexit.

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:27 am**

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:50 am
Disoriented wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:25 pm
Ornchurch wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:48 pm

You believe that. I'll stick to my opinion.

Brexit, IMO, is a bigger issue than party politics and all parties should have worked together to get the best deal for the country. Not spend years arguing, plotting and sabotaging to stop it happening for their own reasons.

The EU don't have to negotiate with us as Parliament Is full of self serving, incompetent tossers who don't know how to stand up for this country.
Yes, they are called conservative politicians.
This is a perfect example of party politic bias that is a major part of the issue.

IF Labour were in charge in this position, although they probably wouldn't have held a referendum in the first place, would the exit have been handled any more efficiently?

Yes.

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:11 am**

There were plenty of people criticising the way the referendum was designed and handled at the time. Even right wing Brexiters like JRM were suggesting a 2-stage process:

1. Hold in/out vote
2. If out wins, negotiate deal then hold confirmatory ref using a transferable vote on remain/leave (with deal)/leave (no deal).

It would have avoided most of the social and political divisions. But then, maybe that's the point.

The fact that we've ended up where we are suggests that Cameron and the Tories are either incompetent or corrupt.

Not that people will realise this of course.

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:13 am**

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:47 pm Remainer MPs discussed Brexit delay date with EU before passing bill. Doesn't seem right to me.

If it doesn’t seem right to you then it must be right.

Thanks for the clarification.

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:25 am**

The morning after the referendum Cameron shouldn’t have immediately resigned. He should've set a date for his departure and then held a consultation with all the parties as to how we left. Another referendum to confirm this then could’ve been held fairly soon after. Then we could trigger Article 50 and leave with the backing of all parties and the people.

Instead he cowardly left us in the poo poo. And May pressed ahead on her own. It never should’ve been down to the party in power to decide how we left. Had to involve all of them.

So every last part of this total catastrofuck lays squarely at the door of the Tories.

The only consolation is that once this is all finally over the Tory party will be left as the hard right English nationalist party responsible for destroying our economy and our society. And will never win an election again.

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:49 am**

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:27 am
Ornchurch wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:50 am
Disoriented wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:25 pm

Yes, they are called conservative politicians.
This is a perfect example of party politic bias that is a major part of the issue.

IF Labour were in charge in this position, although they probably wouldn't have held a referendum in the first place, would the exit have been handled any more efficiently?
Yes.

We'll never know but my opinion is that we would be in exactly the same position.

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:05 am**

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:49 am
Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:27 am
Ornchurch wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:50 am

This is a perfect example of party politic bias that is a major part of the issue.

IF Labour were in charge in this position, although they probably wouldn't have held a referendum in the first place, would the exit have been handled any more efficiently?
Yes.
We'll never know but my opinion is that we would be in exactly the same position.

Labour's approach would be different. They'd deliver a Jobs first Brexit

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:33 am**

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:49 am
Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:27 am
Ornchurch wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:50 am

This is a perfect example of party politic bias that is a major part of the issue.

IF Labour were in charge in this position, although they probably wouldn't have held a referendum in the first place, would the exit have been handled any more efficiently?
Yes.
We'll never know but my opinion is that we would be in exactly the same position.

I agree, we'll never know but where we differ is I find it hard to believe any person/party could have screwed it up as bad as the Tories have.

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:35 am**

Token wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:25 am The morning after the referendum Cameron shouldn’t have immediately resigned. He should've set a date for his departure and then held a consultation with all the parties as to how we left. Another referendum to confirm this then could’ve been held fairly soon after. Then we could trigger Article 50 and leave with the backing of all parties and the people.

Instead he cowardly left us in the poo poo. And May pressed ahead on her own. It never should’ve been down to the party in power to decide how we left. Had to involve all of them.

So every last part of this total catastrofuck lays squarely at the door of the Tories.

The only consolation is that once this is all finally over the Tory party will be left as the hard right English nationalist party responsible for destroying our economy and our society. And will never win an election again.

Yup, and I hope your last sentence proves true but there are a lot of plonkers who vote in this Country.

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:35 am**

Labour would have had a majority and fewer rebels, apart from Mann and Hoey. Therefore, it would have passed.

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:55 pm**

StockholmO wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:21 am
BoniO wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:34 pm
Ornchurch wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:27 pm The way that the MPs of all parties have dealt with Brexit since the referendum is killing democracy in this country.

I can't see myself voting again given the respect that they shown the electorate.
It's the new "spin" of late that all our Brexit woes are down to the behaviour of MP's whereas the blame really lies squarely on the shoulders of the Conservative Party and this government. That the Tories are to blame is the view of many, including many Tory MP's.
Utter bollocks. Am I the only one left on this board with any common f*cking sense?

Roll on Brexit.

Common sense, your having a laugh, Stockholm Syndrome me thinks more like it.

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:02 pm**

How much money has been wasted on this Brexit thingy so far and where has the cash come from to fund it

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:05 pm**

Lucky7 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:02 pm How much money has been wasted on this Brexit thingy so far and where has the cash come from to fund it

Well the Russians have stumped up a fair bit so far but they've had a great return.

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:09 pm**

Boris the sneaky fecking Russian

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