Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:14 am**

My apologies, I was unaware you were given conse t to carry put the required genetic tests.

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:19 am**

Good comeback.

Meanwhile, my actual position on this:

1: Khelife has been put in a position by poor organisation

2: Khelife’s sex is in question because of failing an eligibility test twice and being found to have had XY chromosomes and male levels of testosterone

3: the IOC has not tested Khelife’s sex

My position is that the condition I mentioned fits exactly Khelife’s profile, and is also that it is unfair on the athlete and others like Khelife that there isn’t clear, transparent processes to screen for sex well before we get to elite competition

Meanwhile you just compared a muscular black woman to a male.

It’s also the case that you don’t think maleness should be a barrier to Khelife’s participation in the female category anyway.

Dearie me. I can only assume that at some stage you’ve had a crush on someone who worked at Mermaids, cos you’re all in.

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:27 am**

Mick McQuaid wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:05 am It's laughable that you think you are qualified to diagnose a specific medical condition.

But he hasn't done that, though.

Reading what he's posted, Keef has made it clear when he is putting forward his opinion, not a diagnosis. And he's clearly set out the reasons for him to have formed that opinion. A DSD of the type he has suggested is perfectly probable in the absence of any authority confirming it has evidence to the contrary.

And none of this is to dig Khelife out.

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:31 am**

CEB2ElectricBoogaloo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 8:55 pm
The baby however, lacks a protein that triggers development of the penis.

Can you get this a little bit? Er, asking for a friend.

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:32 am**

Dr. Warriams wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 8:55 pm
The disorder that Khelife almost certainly has is one that occurs exclusively in male people, and is called 5-ARD.it is not a “rare condition in females”, but a “rare condition in males that often results in incorrect observation of sex”

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:32 am**

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 8:22 am
CEB2ElectricBoogaloo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 9:49 pm “gender” isn’t “assigned” at birth, sex is observed and recorded at birth, and in almost all cases there is no problem with doing so. Rare disorders of sex development can mean that in a small number of instances, sex is incorrectly recorded.

I think you’ll find that that’s consistent with everything I’ve ever said on the subject
But that’s not what’s happened here. Gender has been assigned based on sex based on genitals. Which is exactly what the real CEB champions. Its a giveaway on his wannabe account.

Have no interest in getting involved in this topic but an FYI:

Based on the fact that I had almost 30 notifications yesterday, all of which were “CEB2” going through old comments of mine and liking them, presumably as part of his “I’m watching you” act, I do think this is the genuine CEB.

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:36 am**

I haven’t even put forward an argument for whether Khelife should be able to participate in the female category (though I imagine my opinion is easy to guess) - I am addressing *only* the misconceptions which are themselves baseless speculation, and offering more robust speculation on top.

There isn’t actually much dispute that Khelife has a disorder of sexual development.
What there is is that the trans activist side and their well meaning allies have essentially plucked a condition out of the air, a condition that, if Khelife had it, would mean that Khelife’s body was not receptive to testosterone at puberty, and that Khelife had a fully developed female reproductive system, and is capable of carrying a pregnancy to term. That condition was chosen *only* because it enabled a specific narrative - that Khelife is female with a rare condition, rather than male with a rare condition.

THAT is the misinformation.

I agree that there is no certainty that Khelife has 5-ARD. I also agree that it’s reasonable to conclude that the IBA is a discredited organisation.

What I maintain is that if we segregate a sport by sex, that sport needs to screen for DSD males.

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:38 am**

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:31 am
CEB2ElectricBoogaloo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 8:55 pm
The baby however, lacks a protein that triggers development of the penis.

Can you get this a little bit? Er, asking for a friend.

You might want to take a little swab from your nose and then rub it around your urethra

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:39 am**

Dunners wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:27 am
Mick McQuaid wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:05 am It's laughable that you think you are qualified to diagnose a specific medical condition.
But he hasn't done that, though.

Reading what he's posted, Keef has made it clear when he is putting forward his opinion, not a diagnosis. And he's clearly set out the reasons for him to have formed that opinion. A DSD of the type he has suggested is perfectly probable in the absence of any authority confirming it has evidence to the contrary.

And none of this is to dig Khelife out.

Disagree that it’s clear to see which bits are opinion and which bits are facts. That could just be due to his usual pompous tone but i think it’s because of this bit:

“The disorder that Khelife almost certainly has is one that occurs exclusively in male people, and is called 5-ARD.it is not a “rare condition in females”, but a “rare condition in males that often results in incorrect observation of sex”

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:44 am**

I read that as being an opinion based on the reasoning set out in the opening post.

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:45 am**

If it makes it clearer, what I’m saying there is that 5-ARD is the only known condition that would result in these things happening:

1: a sincere belief that the child is female based on observation of genitals at birth
2: masculinisation of the body according to a normal male pathway at puberty
3: being on the radar of sporting bodies actively looking for athletes with that condition
4: failing an eligibility test on the grounds of XY chromosomes and testosterone in the male range

The most likely thing that would give me pause would be if there was a serious suspicion that the test results were faked or corrupt.

I’d instantly change my opinion if a second eligibility test was done which did not find that Khelife has XY chromosomes, or if someone pointed me in the direction of a condition other than 5-ARD that would result in the failure of the eligibility test while also having met point 1 and 2 above

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:50 am**

This thing about sporting bodies deliberately looking for ARD girls - is this really a thing?

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:50 am**

It’s also the case that there is *no* pathway for a female athlete without a DSD to have met the criteria in my post above this one.

It may well be that the IBA’s sex testing was fatally flawed.
My suggestion would be that if the Olympics has sex segregation, and *if* male athletes with DSDs is something that it’s considered legitimate to screen for, then the IOC needs to have robust screening at an earlier stage than when an athlete is subject to public scrutiny and opinion on a contentious subject

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:52 am**

Dunners wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:44 am I read that as being an opinion based on the reasoning set out in the opening post.

Maybe it’s the my opinion is ‘almost certainly’ right but then.

(Not querying it, I know nothing of the science on this, please don’t argue with me).

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:55 am**

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:50 am This thing about sporting bodies deliberately looking for ARD girls - is this really a thing?

Yes - all a bit murky but I’ll try to find some relevant info, but also very happy for you to disregard that aspect for now as understandably me saying “trust me bro” isn’t convincing.
Aside from anything else, I mention that aspect more to mitigate Khelife’s own actions - my belief is that Khelife was probably recognised by talent scouts and deliberately insulated from any suggestion that it’d be wrong to compete as a female.

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:58 am**

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:52 am
Dunners wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:44 am I read that as being an opinion based on the reasoning set out in the opening post.
Maybe it’s the my opinion is ‘almost certainly’ right but then.

(Not querying it, I know nothing of the science on this, please don’t argue with me).

Again, for clarity, my mention of “certainty” was to cut through the speculation and the vague “I heard she was born a girl” type stuff, and to state the most likely option based on the stuff that’s undisputed. I’d say that I’m personally certain (with the proviso that if the IBA’s test results were seriously disputed, I’d want to see a credible, repeated test and would adjust my opinion based on the results ) , but that I totally get that others can and should only see it as my opinion; I don’t expect anyone to say “that’s that sorted”

What I don’t think is that the rationale I’ve presented is poor quality, and dismissible out of hand in favour of “who knows? It’s complicated and what about Serena Williams”

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:02 am**

It’s not poor quality, of course.

But when one of your points is that Khelife has a masculine body, it’s not unreasonable for others to point out that some female athletes also have masculine bodies.

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:05 am**

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:02 am It’s not poor quality, of course.

But when one of your points is that Khelife has a masculine body, it’s not unreasonable for others to point out that some female athletes also have masculine bodies.

I would not see Khelife’s masculine body as an inherent reason to assume maleness. The masculine body *with* the failed eligibility test, and with the absence of female secondary sex characteristics is why Khelife’s sex is legitimately subject to scrutiny.

For clarity, I believe it would be wrong to ever use “appears masculine” as a reason to suspect an athlete in the female category of being male, and I believe all athletes should be screened for sex using the once in a lifetime, non invasive cheek swab method, with follow up testing only necessary when a DSD (or simply being male) is indicated.

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:09 am**

Can we please at least get her name right. It's Khelif, not Khelife.

(If it didn't have the "l" in it, it would sound almost like Keef, which is spooky.)

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:11 am**

Apologies, my phone defaulted to Khelife. Sorted.

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:29 am**

Kor your return has really made the board fun again!

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:30 am**

It was better three months ago

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:33 am**

Mick McQuaid wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:05 am I think I have already. It's laughable that you think you are qualified to diagnose a specific medical condition.

Can you do Serena Williams next?

To be fair, the iba doctors did the dsd diagnosis when they banned her in the first place

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:37 am**

Adz wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:33 am
Mick McQuaid wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:05 am I think I have already. It's laughable that you think you are qualified to diagnose a specific medical condition.

Can you do Serena Williams next?
To be fair, the iba doctors did the dsd diagnosis when they banned her in the first place

Not quite - what they did was screen for eligibility. They didn’t make a positive diagnosis of a condition, they screened for criteria that would be a bar to eligibility.

What came up - based on what the criteria being screened for actually was - is consistent with the condition I mentioned, but they didn’t diagnose it, as that wasn’t within their remit

Posted: **Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:39 am**

CEB2ElectricBoogaloo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:37 am
Adz wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:33 am
Mick McQuaid wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:05 am I think I have already. It's laughable that you think you are qualified to diagnose a specific medical condition.

Can you do Serena Williams next?
To be fair, the iba doctors did the dsd diagnosis when they banned her in the first place

Not quite - what they did was screen for eligibility. They didn’t make a positive diagnosis of a condition, they screened for criteria that would be a bar to eligibility.

What came up - based on what the criteria being screened for actually was - is consistent with the condition I mentioned, but they didn’t diagnose it, as that wasn’t within their remit

The Board has sorely missed a qualified medical practitioner/geneticist with a vendetta against minorities.

Independent Leyton Orient Forum

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