To avoid derailing the Olympics thread…

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

…because above all, the whole point of any discourse around eligibility is so that the Olympics can, as far as possible, celebrate exceptional athletes doing exceptional things, so for that reason, the controversy is maybe best discussed elsewhere.
It’s also not appropriate for the “Trans Debate” thread, because there’s no suggestion at the moment that the boxer at the centre of the controversy has asserted a transgender identity.

So this thread is where I’ll do my best to clear up any misconceptions (and by god there are a lot) that were in the Olympics thread yesterday.
I’ll tell you what I think and why, and i’ll be clear to differentiate fact from my opinion

I’ll start with the most pertinent detail, in my considered opinion: Khelife is almost certainly male. With “almost” meaning “unless Khelife has a condition that up until now has never, ever been observed”

The stuff doing the rounds about being “born female”, about “being a girl with a rare condition resulting in XY chromosomes” is nothing more than speculation based on misunderstandings, which are themselves based on misinformation; in terms of what is referred to by “born female” in those assertions, what is actually meant is “at birth, Khelife’s sex was recorded as female, and Khelife was most likely raised as a child by a family who had a sincere belief that Khelife was female”

The suggestion that Khelife has a female reproductive system is baseless speculation based on social media claims (none with any source) that Khelife has a disorder of sexual development called Swyers Syndrome. As well as being baseless, it’s also vanishingly unlikely to be true, since Swyer syndrome does not result in the masculinisation that clearly happened to Khelife’s body during puberty.

The disorder that Khelife almost certainly has is one that occurs exclusively in male people, and is called 5-ARD.it is not a “rare condition in females”, but a “rare condition in males that often results in incorrect observation of sex”

What happens with this condition is this.

During pregnancy the foetus initially develops as a normal healthy male - testicles, testosterone, anatomy.

The baby however, lacks a protein that triggers development of the penis.
The result of this is that the external genitalia can resemble that of females at birth, and be recorded as such.
The child however, has internal testicles capable of one day producing sperm, and no female reproductive system

In childhood, usually nothing happens to signal that the sex has been wrongly recorded.

At 11 or 12 though - male puberty kicks in in and huge amounts of testosterone impact the body in the way it does all males, and it actually triggers a masculinisation of the genitals too. The child develops physically like any other male, strength, height, speed, voice breaking, sexual maturation (including sperm production in the undescended testicles) - the child actually experiences standard male puberty, with the impact on potential performance that it has in any male.



Why do I believe Khelife has that DSD?

These reasons
1: it is extremely unlikely that an Algerian family decided to raise an obviously male child as if female, or that a young Algerian boy pressed to be treated as a girl. There are photos of Khelife as a child, and from those one can conclude that there was a sincere belief that Khelife was a female child

2: Khelife’s body has clearly gone through a masculinisation process consistent with that of a male with the disorder of sexual development described above

3: sex tests to determine eligibility have found that Khelife has XY chromosomes and testosterone in the male range - statistically there is zero overlap between the highest levels of testosterone in females and the lowest of that in males. The only way a female would have testosterone that high is with doping.

4: The IOC’s criteria for eligibility is “sex recorded on passport”, and has not carried out any further tests on top of those by the IBA that found Khelife to be male

5: many sporting bodies actually scout for young people who are likely to have this specific DSD, for the specific reason that their DSD and the erroneous sex category in which they have been in since birth, makes them good bets for athletic success, especially where (as with the IOC) there is no sex testing of any sort


So when Dunners suggested that the complexity around this was because this is a female with a rare condition, he’s incorrect. It’s based on this misconception; that being *socialised* as a girl, with a sincere belief of being a girl (as Khelife was and probably had) means that Khelife actually was female; those people saying “Khelife isn’t trans, she was born a woman” are actually meaning “Khelife has never asserted a trans identity - a girl identity is something Khelife didn’t choose”


And that gets us onto why the subject matters, and why it’s evil TERFs complaining about it; the problem with males who identify as trans in female sport isn’t trans identity, isn’t lippy, isn’t heels, isn’t fake tits. It’s being male. Athletes with the DSD that Khelife almost certainly has are also male.


Hope this helps - Adz I saw your question in the other thread midway through typing it, hopefully this answers your question, as well as shows why sex determination isn’t as simple as “so you’re saying she DOESNT have a vagina”

[Dunners]

Thank you for putting me right on a few points I was unsure of.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

You’re very welcome.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

Whoever’s taking off ceb has got it spot on. Making a case for assigned gender at birth being wrong is a giveaway though.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

“gender” isn’t “assigned” at birth, sex is observed and recorded at birth, and in almost all cases there is no problem with doing so. Rare disorders of sex development can mean that in a small number of instances, sex is incorrectly recorded.

I think you’ll find that that’s consistent with everything I’ve ever said on the subject

[The Mindsweep]

It blows my mind that the outrage on here is over a woman who was born a woman competing in a woman’s event and not over a man who groomed and raped a 12 year old three times getting to compete in the first place

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

it blows my mind that you’d post something that my post actually disproves

[The Mindsweep]

it blows my mind that you’d post something that my post actually disproves

Are you qualified to be the ultimate authority on the subject, or is it just the opinion you've come to after reading up on the matter?

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

I know the subject. Feel free to take issue with an aspect of this case that you think I’ve got wrong.

[The Mindsweep]

I know the subject. Feel free to take issue with an aspect of this case that you think I’ve got wrong.

So, although you have in the past and continue to take a keen interest in gender issues, far more than myself, it's still an opinion as you see it. Likewise, although with probably less research on my park, I have formed an opinion although different from yourself.

In regards to the main point of my initial post, don't you feel surprised that the gender of an athlete which is open to debate, is gaining far more outrage than the undisputed case of a competing athlete who groomed and raped a 12 year old girl at least 3 times?

[Adz]

Interesting, thanks for the post. I'm surprised as a sports person competing at the highest stage this hasn't been properly cleared up before. Surely they can conclusively confirm this or not

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

I know the subject. Feel free to take issue with an aspect of this case that you think I’ve got wrong.

So, although you have in the past and continue to take a keen interest in gender issues, far more than myself, it's still an opinion as you see it. Likewise, although with probably less research on my park, I have formed an opinion although different from yourself.

In regards to the main point of my initial post, don't you feel surprised that the gender of an athlete which is open to debate, is gaining far more outrage than the undisputed case of a competing athlete who groomed and raped a 12 year old girl at least 3 times?

You haven’t formed an opinion on “less” research, you’ve repeated an opinion you took at face value elsewhere. Thats why you dont have a counterpoint to anything I’ve said. I’d be open to hearing it.

As for the rapist - start a thread about him and I’ll be happy to discuss

[Dunners]

It blows my mind that the outrage on here is over a woman who was born a woman competing in a woman’s event and not over a man who groomed and raped a 12 year old three times getting to compete in the first place

Not really. Pretty much everyone was aligned in their condemnation of inclusion of the Dutch paedo. And he has been roundly boo'd every time he's appeared. In short, we're all in agreement over an issue that is relatively more straightforward.

This is different entirely. There's more ambiguity amongst the public and lots of disinformation, speculation and scope for debate. It's wrong to conflate the two issues.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

Interesting, thanks for the post. I'm surprised as a sports person competing at the highest stage this hasn't been properly cleared up before. Surely they can conclusively confirm this or not

It can be conclusively confirmed - the IOC choose not to. The only criteria for eligibility that the IOC used for Khelife’a eligibility is “sex on the passport”. It’s not a sustainable policy, clearly.
And all the misinformation and misconceptions about this are in no small part because a lot of people would like this issue to just disappear

[Dunners]

…So when Dunners suggested that the complexity around this was because this is a female with a rare condition, he’s incorrect. It’s based on this misconception; that being *socialised* as a girl, with a sincere belief of being a girl (as Khelife was and probably had) means that Khelife actually was female; those people saying “Khelife isn’t trans, she was born a woman” are actually meaning “Khelife has never asserted a trans identity - a girl identity is something Khelife didn’t choose”

Yeah, that last line is how I should have expressed the point. Although, I have no insight into Khelife's mindset or motivations.

I think that, on the balance of probability, a DSD as you've described is most likely. I cannot begin to image how messed up that would be for any young boy to grow up with though.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

Overall, I would say that Khelife is someone who is in a position due to poor organisation and poor policy making of others, and isn’t a villain in this - Khelife has probably had an entitlement to compete instilled, and been reassured “yes of course you’re a woman!” by people with a vested interest in Khelife’s athletic career.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

For sure having those conditions and discovering you have one must be devastating. It’s unimaginable to have your world turned upside down like that - though, again, it’s also possible that this person has never had the bare facts of the condition revealed - Khelife may well be under the impression of having a “condition that affects a small number of girls”, and may well not actually experience discomfort with his body as it developed.


The villains here are those who seek out athletes with these conditions, and the sports bodies whose eligibility criteria are cobbled together based on vaguely hoping they’ve correctly worked out which way the wind is blowing.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

“gender” isn’t “assigned” at birth, sex is observed and recorded at birth, and in almost all cases there is no problem with doing so. Rare disorders of sex development can mean that in a small number of instances, sex is incorrectly recorded.

I think you’ll find that that’s consistent with everything I’ve ever said on the subject

But that’s not what’s happened here. Gender has been assigned based on sex based on genitals. Which is exactly what the real CEB champions. Its a giveaway on his wannabe account.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

“gender” isn’t “assigned” at birth, sex is observed and recorded at birth, and in almost all cases there is no problem with doing so. Rare disorders of sex development can mean that in a small number of instances, sex is incorrectly recorded.

I think you’ll find that that’s consistent with everything I’ve ever said on the subject

But that’s not what’s happened here. Gender has been assigned based on sex based on genitals. Which is exactly what the real CEB champions. Its a giveaway on his wannabe account.

You seem to be confused. Let me help.

Trans activists use the phrase “gender assigned at birth” to popularise the idea that we are all brought up with an arbitrary “gender identity” determined wrongly by norms on the shape of our genitals. Their position is that this “gender identity” often “aligns” with sex, but sometimes doesn’t.




My issue with that is that a “gender identity” isn’t “assigned” - the sex of a child is observed at birth, and “Gender identity” is nothing more than pervasive social stereotypes and expectations.

Sex is observed at birth, almost always with no issues whatsoever. The only times sex is observed wrongly at birth is in the case of people with disorders of sexual development.


Feel free to point me in the direction of where I’ve said something other than that.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

So there are cases where sec is observed wrongly? Ok cool. Are we able to pick and choose the scenarios that suit your agenda or is it just you?

[Mick McQuaid]

When you decide you can diagnose a specific medical condition because you've 'done your research' it might be time to take a deep breath and realise you've gone a little too far down the rabbit hole.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

So there are cases where sec is observed wrongly? Ok cool. Are we able to pick and choose the scenarios that suit your agenda or is it just you?

Yes there are cases where sex is observed wrongly.

I’ve just given you the times when sex is observed wrongly.

When someone without a disorder of sexual development has their sex observed and recorded, and that person later asserts a trans identity, that is irrelevant to that person’s sex.

You’re conflating two things, and bizarrely attempting to accuse me of double standards where no such double standard exists.

All you’re doing is confirming my long held suspicion that you never actually read anything I have said on this subject

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

When you decide you can diagnose a specific medical condition because you've 'done your research' it might be time to take a deep breath and realise you've gone a little too far down the rabbit hole.

Feel free to pick apart my reasoning, mate. I’m guessing that everything about Khelife comes over as female to you, eh?

[Mick McQuaid]

I think I have already. It's laughable that you think you are qualified to diagnose a specific medical condition.

Can you do Serena Williams next?

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

Serena Williams’s sex isn’t in doubt, but well done to you for comparing a black woman to a male, that’s not a sexist trope at all.


The crucial difference being that Khelife has XY chromosomes and testosterone in the male range.

You do get that there is a difference between questioning the sex of an athlete because he failed eligibility testing for the female criteria, and questioning the sex of an athlete because she’s black and muscular?


You utter, utter clown.