Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:31 pm**

I don't remember any t&C's being agreed to at point of sale. I remember entering my contact information so that somebody could phone me and take a payment.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:32 pm**

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:31 pm I don't remember any t&C's being agreed to at point of sale. I remember entering my contact information so that somebody could phone me and take a payment.

Jesus.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:59 pm**

I wonder how many ST holders also renewed, knowing full well that there were likely to be a number of games that they wouldn't be allowed in to, but in order to be towards the front of the queue if and when a limited number of fans are allowed in. In some ways, that's a benefit that everyone who has renewed is already receiving - knowing that they are more likely to get in to a limited-crowd match than any walk-up supporters.

Not saying it's exclusively why people might renew, but it's still a benefit.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:23 pm**

StillSpike wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:59 pm Not saying it's exclusively why people might renew, but it's still a benefit.

That was certainly part of my thinking when renewing.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:33 pm**

StillSpike wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:59 pm I wonder how many ST holders also renewed, knowing full well that there were likely to be a number of games that they wouldn't be allowed in to, but in order to be towards the front of the queue if and when a limited number of fans are allowed in. In some ways, that's a benefit that everyone who has renewed is already receiving - knowing that they are more likely to get in to a limited-crowd match than any walk-up supporters.

Not saying it's exclusively why people might renew, but it's still a benefit.

I'll start on this, renewed with my dad to keep our seats for whatever point in the future stadium attendance returns. If I lose the dead-central view we have now I wouldn't bother going back.

On the streaming front I renewed on the proviso we'd be able to watch a stream if stadium attendance was banned / heavily restricted. Now if that wasn't offered either I'd want a refund as you don't pay to not watch a game.

Tbh the arrangement seemed fair until two things happened...

1) non ST holders can now watch a season for less than an ST holder. Club need to step up here and find a solution to add value to streaming ST card holders to show how they appreciate that custom.

Personally I reckon something like the extended highlights for away games being thrown in free / a free away game credit with club covering the stream revenue to away side.

2) the club advertising ST holders' stream access as some kind of favour aka "FREE!". No it's not free, it's the T&C's that were posted above that people purchased against. Stop pretending you're doing us a favour by giving the product that was paid for.

The club haven't got much wrong with the streaming service concept and implementation but this goes down as a bit of an own-goal imo. Don't tell ST constantly how much they're valued as it's becoming a bit tacky, just show it through the product offering.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:08 pm**

gshaw wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:33 pm
StillSpike wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:59 pm I wonder how many ST holders also renewed, knowing full well that there were likely to be a number of games that they wouldn't be allowed in to, but in order to be towards the front of the queue if and when a limited number of fans are allowed in. In some ways, that's a benefit that everyone who has renewed is already receiving - knowing that they are more likely to get in to a limited-crowd match than any walk-up supporters.

Not saying it's exclusively why people might renew, but it's still a benefit.
I'll start on this, renewed with my dad to keep our seats for whatever point in the future stadium attendance returns. If I lose the dead-central view we have now I wouldn't bother going back.

On the streaming front I renewed on the proviso we'd be able to watch a stream if stadium attendance was banned / heavily restricted. Now if that wasn't offered either I'd want a refund as you don't pay to not watch a game.

Tbh the arrangement seemed fair until two things happened...

1) non ST holders can now watch a season for less than an ST holder. Club need to step up here and find a solution to add value to streaming ST card holders to show how they appreciate that custom.

Personally I reckon something like the extended highlights for away games being thrown in free / a free away game credit with club covering the stream revenue to away side.

2) the club advertising ST holders' stream access as some kind of favour aka "FREE!". No it's not free, it's the T&C's that were posted above that people purchased against. Stop pretending you're doing us a favour by giving the product that was paid for.

The club haven't got much wrong with the streaming service concept and implementation but this goes down as a bit of an own-goal imo. Don't tell ST constantly how much they're valued as it's becoming a bit tacky, just show it through the product offering.

As you say, I don't think they've done much wrong but there are niggles.

I know that their hands are tied by the majority vote on pricing etc, but if it was felt to be a major issue, I wonder whether there'd be some mileage in the route you've suggested, with the club picking up up the away side's "missing" revenue. Exploring that - you'd imagine the other teams might be in the same boat vis a vis Season Ticket holders wanting a little extra - like away games thrown in. Maybe the clubs could come to some understanding to make games reciprocal - so the Orient ST holders get the away game at Oldham (for example) for free, and in return the Oldham ST holders get their stream from Brisbane Road. I suspect it'd have to be individual bilateral agreements, and it's probably way too much hassle to sort out, but it's a thought.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:21 pm**

gshaw wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:33 pm
StillSpike wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:59 pm I wonder how many ST holders also renewed, knowing full well that there were likely to be a number of games that they wouldn't be allowed in to, but in order to be towards the front of the queue if and when a limited number of fans are allowed in. In some ways, that's a benefit that everyone who has renewed is already receiving - knowing that they are more likely to get in to a limited-crowd match than any walk-up supporters.

Not saying it's exclusively why people might renew, but it's still a benefit.
I'll start on this, renewed with my dad to keep our seats for whatever point in the future stadium attendance returns. If I lose the dead-central view we have now I wouldn't bother going back.

On the streaming front I renewed on the proviso we'd be able to watch a stream if stadium attendance was banned / heavily restricted. Now if that wasn't offered either I'd want a refund as you don't pay to not watch a game.

Tbh the arrangement seemed fair until two things happened...

1) non ST holders can now watch a season for less than an ST holder. Club need to step up here and find a solution to add value to streaming ST card holders to show how they appreciate that custom.

Personally I reckon something like the extended highlights for away games being thrown in free / a free away game credit with club covering the stream revenue to away side.

2) the club advertising ST holders' stream access as some kind of favour aka "FREE!". No it's not free, it's the T&C's that were posted above that people purchased against. Stop pretending you're doing us a favour by giving the product that was paid for.

The club haven't got much wrong with the streaming service concept and implementation but this goes down as a bit of an own-goal imo. Don't tell ST constantly how much they're valued as it's becoming a bit tacky, just show it through the product offering.

I’ll carry this on.

You have paid for the possibility of attending games if they open the ground up this season and to retain your seat for future years. Why should you pay the same price as me - an ex ST holder who has lost their centre of stand seat and has no prospect of attending games this season - for the streams?

You have no entitlement to anything else from the club. Don’t you think they have enough to deal with in the current environment without you trying to squeeze a refund out of them?

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:22 pm**

StillSpike wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:59 pm I wonder how many ST holders also renewed, knowing full well that there were likely to be a number of games that they wouldn't be allowed in to, but in order to be towards the front of the queue if and when a limited number of fans are allowed in. In some ways, that's a benefit that everyone who has renewed is already receiving - knowing that they are more likely to get in to a limited-crowd match than any walk-up supporters.

Not saying it's exclusively why people might renew, but it's still a benefit.

This was exactly my thinking.

I weighed it up and decided it wasn’t worth it and would instead make do with watching the streams this season. If things change and I can get back in at some point next year, that would be great.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:31 pm**

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:05 pm Say we're in January and we still can't attend matches, I'm going to feel pretty cheated. I'd like a partial refund I think. What say you?

I'd say more fool you

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:32 pm**

StillSpike wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:59 pm I wonder how many ST holders also renewed, knowing full well that there were likely to be a number of games that they wouldn't be allowed in to, but in order to be towards the front of the queue if and when a limited number of fans are allowed in. In some ways, that's a benefit that everyone who has renewed is already receiving - knowing that they are more likely to get in to a limited-crowd match than any walk-up supporters.

Not saying it's exclusively why people might renew, but it's still a benefit.

Having a chance at getting the product you paid for is not a benefit.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:34 pm**

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:32 pm
StillSpike wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:59 pm I wonder how many ST holders also renewed, knowing full well that there were likely to be a number of games that they wouldn't be allowed in to, but in order to be towards the front of the queue if and when a limited number of fans are allowed in. In some ways, that's a benefit that everyone who has renewed is already receiving - knowing that they are more likely to get in to a limited-crowd match than any walk-up supporters.

Not saying it's exclusively why people might renew, but it's still a benefit.
Having a chance at getting the product you paid for is not a benefit.

It is when you’re told there’s a chance games will be behind closed doors and you won’t be getting a refund.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:48 pm**

RedO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:34 pm
BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:32 pm
StillSpike wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:59 pm I wonder how many ST holders also renewed, knowing full well that there were likely to be a number of games that they wouldn't be allowed in to, but in order to be towards the front of the queue if and when a limited number of fans are allowed in. In some ways, that's a benefit that everyone who has renewed is already receiving - knowing that they are more likely to get in to a limited-crowd match than any walk-up supporters.

Not saying it's exclusively why people might renew, but it's still a benefit.
Having a chance at getting the product you paid for is not a benefit.
It is when you’re told there’s a chance games will be behind closed doors and you won’t be getting a refund.

No it’s not. Paying for a product and then getting an inferior one whilst having to pay more than a non-ST holder for the ‘free stream’ is not a benefit. A benefit would be them saying ‘for the games you miss, we’ll refund the difference on the stream compared to a ticket price’, ‘we’ll give you a discounted ST for next season’, ‘we’ll give you a complimentary programme for every game and money to be used for refreshments’.

They’ve marketed the stream as ‘free’ but it’s not because they’re going to keep the money we’ve paid to watch the game in person. What is it? Are they providing us with the stream for free? If so, refund the ticket price. If they’re using the money we’ve paid from our season tickets, be honest about it and refund the difference.

They talk about the incredible and loyal support from the 3,500 or whatever it is who signed up but what loyalty have they shown to us?

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:56 pm**

PutneyO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:31 pm
Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:05 pm Say we're in January and we still can't attend matches, I'm going to feel pretty cheated. I'd like a partial refund I think. What say you?
I'd say more fool you

Nice way to treat fans who buy STs year after year. Treat me like a fool and perhaps this will be my last ST.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:06 pm**

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:48 pm
RedO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:34 pm
BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:32 pm
Having a chance at getting the product you paid for is not a benefit.
It is when you’re told there’s a chance games will be behind closed doors and you won’t be getting a refund.
No it’s not. Paying for a product and then getting an inferior one whilst having to pay more than a non-ST holder for the ‘free stream’ is not a benefit. A benefit would be them saying ‘for the games you miss, we’ll refund the difference on the stream compared to a ticket price’, ‘we’ll give you a discounted ST for next season’, ‘we’ll give you a complimentary programme for every game and money to be used for refreshments’.

They’ve marketed the stream as ‘free’ but it’s not because they’re going to keep the money we’ve paid to watch the game in person. What is it? Are they providing us with the stream for free? If so, refund the ticket price. If they’re using the money we’ve paid from our season tickets, be honest about it and refund the difference.

They talk about the incredible and loyal support from the 3,500 or whatever it is who signed up but what loyalty have they shown to us?

Mind-bottling.

So if they made (or tried to) us non ST holders pay equivalent - say £15 - £20 - to the price you mistakenly believe you are paying, would that make you whingebags happy?

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:08 pm**

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:56 pm
PutneyO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:31 pm
Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:05 pm Say we're in January and we still can't attend matches, I'm going to feel pretty cheated. I'd like a partial refund I think. What say you?
I'd say more fool you
Nice way to treat fans who buy STs year after year. Treat me like a fool and perhaps this will be my last ST.

If only they’d told you when you renewed that you wouldn’t get a refund if games were played behind closed doors, hey?

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:13 pm**

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:56 pm
PutneyO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:31 pm
Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:05 pm Say we're in January and we still can't attend matches, I'm going to feel pretty cheated. I'd like a partial refund I think. What say you?
I'd say more fool you
Nice way to treat fans who buy STs year after year. Treat me like a fool and perhaps this will be my last ST.

C'ya, and take that whinger Biggsy with ya

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:20 pm**

RedO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:06 pm
BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:48 pm
RedO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:34 pm

It is when you’re told there’s a chance games will be behind closed doors and you won’t be getting a refund.
No it’s not. Paying for a product and then getting an inferior one whilst having to pay more than a non-ST holder for the ‘free stream’ is not a benefit. A benefit would be them saying ‘for the games you miss, we’ll refund the difference on the stream compared to a ticket price’, ‘we’ll give you a discounted ST for next season’, ‘we’ll give you a complimentary programme for every game and money to be used for refreshments’.

They’ve marketed the stream as ‘free’ but it’s not because they’re going to keep the money we’ve paid to watch the game in person. What is it? Are they providing us with the stream for free? If so, refund the ticket price. If they’re using the money we’ve paid from our season tickets, be honest about it and refund the difference.

They talk about the incredible and loyal support from the 3,500 or whatever it is who signed up but what loyalty have they shown to us?
Mind-bottling.

So if they made (or tried to) us non ST holders pay equivalent - say £15 - £20 - to the price you mistakenly believe you are paying, would that make you whingebags happy?

The phrase you want is mind-boggling.

2 things. There's nothing mistakenly about it. I pay roughly £13 per game. Me and a non-ST holder are 'paying' 2 different prices for the same product. There's nothing mistakenly about it.

I'm not saying a non-ST holder should pay more. I'm saying it should be the same for everyone. The EFL have said it's £10, so that's exactly what everyone should be paying.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:33 pm**

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:05 pm Say we're in January and we still can't attend matches, I'm going to feel pretty cheated. I'd like a partial refund I think. What say you?

"you pays your money and you takes your choice"

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:48 pm**

PutneyO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:33 pm
Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:05 pm Say we're in January and we still can't attend matches, I'm going to feel pretty cheated. I'd like a partial refund I think. What say you?
"you pays your money and you takes your choice"

Yeah but the next time the club needs money and next to no one ‘pays your money’, then what?

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:52 pm**

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:20 pm
RedO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:06 pm
BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:48 pm
No it’s not. Paying for a product and then getting an inferior one whilst having to pay more than a non-ST holder for the ‘free stream’ is not a benefit. A benefit would be them saying ‘for the games you miss, we’ll refund the difference on the stream compared to a ticket price’, ‘we’ll give you a discounted ST for next season’, ‘we’ll give you a complimentary programme for every game and money to be used for refreshments’.

They’ve marketed the stream as ‘free’ but it’s not because they’re going to keep the money we’ve paid to watch the game in person. What is it? Are they providing us with the stream for free? If so, refund the ticket price. If they’re using the money we’ve paid from our season tickets, be honest about it and refund the difference.

They talk about the incredible and loyal support from the 3,500 or whatever it is who signed up but what loyalty have they shown to us?
Mind-bottling.

So if they made (or tried to) us non ST holders pay equivalent - say £15 - £20 - to the price you mistakenly believe you are paying, would that make you whingebags happy?
The phrase you want is mind-boggling.

2 things. There's nothing mistakenly about it. I pay roughly £13 per game. Me and a non-ST holder are 'paying' 2 different prices for the same product. There's nothing mistakenly about it.

I'm not saying a non-ST holder should pay more. I'm saying it should be the same for everyone. The EFL have said it's £10, so that's exactly what everyone should be paying.

You’re not paying £13 for a stream. You paid for a season ticket but because you’re not allowed in, you’re being provided with a stream for free.

But looking at things your way, and that you’re paying for the stream... as well as the stream, you are also ensuring you’re at the front of the queue should we be allowed back in and you’re also retaining your seat for 2021/22. So of course you should pay more than us non ST holders.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:53 pm**

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:48 pm
PutneyO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:33 pm
Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:05 pm Say we're in January and we still can't attend matches, I'm going to feel pretty cheated. I'd like a partial refund I think. What say you?
"you pays your money and you takes your choice"
Yeah but the next time the club needs money and next to no one ‘pays your money’, then what?

There’s a handful of whingers on here bleating away but I’m certain most people understood the situation - the voting also backs this up.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:59 pm**

RedO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:52 pm
BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:20 pm
RedO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:06 pm

Mind-bottling.

So if they made (or tried to) us non ST holders pay equivalent - say £15 - £20 - to the price you mistakenly believe you are paying, would that make you whingebags happy?
The phrase you want is mind-boggling.

2 things. There's nothing mistakenly about it. I pay roughly £13 per game. Me and a non-ST holder are 'paying' 2 different prices for the same product. There's nothing mistakenly about it.

I'm not saying a non-ST holder should pay more. I'm saying it should be the same for everyone. The EFL have said it's £10, so that's exactly what everyone should be paying.
You’re not paying £13 for a stream. You paid for a season ticket but because you’re not allowed in, you’re being provided with a stream for free.

But looking at things your way, and that you’re paying for the stream... as well as the stream, you are also ensuring you’re at the front of the queue should we be allowed back in and you’re also retaining your seat for 2021/22. So of course you should pay more than us non ST holders.

Don't be obtuse. They provide the stream in lieu of going into the ground. If they were providing it for free, then I'll have my £13 back. You pay £10 for the same thing I'm losing £13 for. There's a reason different stands cost different prices.

You must be on a wind up, even tuffers isn't as thick as you.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:02 pm**

RedO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:53 pm
Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:48 pm
PutneyO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:33 pm

"you pays your money and you takes your choice"
Yeah but the next time the club needs money and next to no one ‘pays your money’, then what?
There’s a handful of whingers on here bleating away but I’m certain most people understood the situation - the voting also backs this up.

Think you’re right. But doesn’t mean it’s right.

Dunno why I care, I haven’t even got a ST

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:10 pm**

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:02 pm
RedO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:53 pm
Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:48 pm

Yeah but the next time the club needs money and next to no one ‘pays your money’, then what?
There’s a handful of whingers on here bleating away but I’m certain most people understood the situation - the voting also backs this up.
Think you’re right. But doesn’t mean it’s right.

Dunno why I care, I haven’t even got a ST

Everyone understands the situation but that doesn't mean everyone will be happy at paying more than other people, for the same product.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:13 pm**

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:59 pm
RedO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:52 pm
BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:20 pm
The phrase you want is mind-boggling.

2 things. There's nothing mistakenly about it. I pay roughly £13 per game. Me and a non-ST holder are 'paying' 2 different prices for the same product. There's nothing mistakenly about it.

I'm not saying a non-ST holder should pay more. I'm saying it should be the same for everyone. The EFL have said it's £10, so that's exactly what everyone should be paying.
You’re not paying £13 for a stream. You paid for a season ticket but because you’re not allowed in, you’re being provided with a stream for free.

But looking at things your way, and that you’re paying for the stream... as well as the stream, you are also ensuring you’re at the front of the queue should we be allowed back in and you’re also retaining your seat for 2021/22. So of course you should pay more than us non ST holders.
Don't be obtuse. They provide the stream in lieu of going into the ground. If they were providing it for free, then I'll have my £13 back. You pay £10 for the same thing I'm losing £13 for. There's a reason different stands cost different prices.

You must be on a wind up, even tuffers isn't as thick as you.

Do you not accept that a ST holder with a free stream has more - the items listed above, priority access and seat retention - than a non ST holder paying for a stream on a weekly basis?

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