Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:29 pm

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:13 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:01 pm

I'm not ignoring it. I just think it's a non point. Lots of Irish and Palestinian flags not to mention the flag of the Spanish Republic can be seen at Celtic Park. But nobody would say there will be none of those flags on the Cup if Celtic lost because that would be an unacceptable thing to say about a Scottish club. Now apply that to Spurs.

You do know that Celtic were fined by uefa for there fans waving palestinian Flags don't you..

Yet Israeli flags at Spurs have never bought any kind of fine & must be seen as a political statement as the palestinian ones were by UEFA.

As for the Irish flags at celtic park , they are clearly not political as it is a nod to the fact that the club originally started out as a charitable way to feed starving children most of whom were children of irish immigrants although not exclusively.

The UEFA rule is just stupid like many of their rules and is a bit of an earner.

Not convinced that the Irish flags displayed by Celtic fans don't have political meaning. The one on the main stand probably performs the function you describe. In the 50s the SFA tried to have it removed.

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:43 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:29 pm

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:13 pm

You do know that Celtic were fined by uefa for there fans waving palestinian Flags don't you..

Yet Israeli flags at Spurs have never bought any kind of fine & must be seen as a political statement as the palestinian ones were by UEFA.

As for the Irish flags at celtic park , they are clearly not political as it is a nod to the fact that the club originally started out as a charitable way to feed starving children most of whom were children of irish immigrants although not exclusively.

The UEFA rule is just stupid like many of their rules and is a bit of an earner.

Not convinced that the Irish flags displayed by Celtic fans don't have political meaning. The one on the main stand probably performs the function you describe. In the 50s the SFA tried to have it removed.

Of course the Irish Flag has political meaning but there really isnt much that uefa or the sfa could do about it or with the unuion flag at Ibrox

However the UEFA FINE was because the game in question was against Israeli team Happoel ( i think) .

So surely any israeli flag flown at spurs with no israeli player in your side should mean a fine would be correct as a flag of david can only be described as a politically related flag ?
Not that it would bother me personally but if its in the rules then surely those rules ahould be enforced everywhere in uefa games.

P.S i notice you used the hyphonated spelling of Anti-Semite , is there a reason for this as opposed to antisemite . Is there a specific reason used for the hyphonated use of the word ?

I remember reading something about it but have forgotten what it is mewnt to imply

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:51 pm

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:43 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:29 pm

The UEFA rule is just stupid like many of their rules and is a bit of an earner.

Not convinced that the Irish flags displayed by Celtic fans don't have political meaning. The one on the main stand probably performs the function you describe. In the 50s the SFA tried to have it removed.

Of course the Irish Flag has political meaning but there really isnt much that uefa or the sfa could do about it or with the unuion flag at Ibrox

However the UEFA FINE was because the game in question was against Israeli team Happoel ( i think) .

So surely any israeli flag flown at spurs with no israeli player in your side should mean a fine would be correct as a flag of david can only be described as a politically related flag ?
Not that it would bother me personally but if its in the rules then surely those rules ahould be enforced everywhere in uefa games.

P.S i notice you used the hyphonated spelling of Anti-Semite , is there a reason for this as opposed to antisemite . Is there a specific reason used for the hyphonated use of the word ?

I remember reading something about it but have forgotten what it is mewnt to imply

Why would anyone want to take issue with the national flag of the country being flown at Ibrox. Apples and oranges on that one chief. In our wee toon we have the Union, St Andrews and EU flags flying in our main square. It seems to keep everyone happy.

Celtic were fined for their fans staging a political protest which is just silly. Let them have their say.

There's no hidden meaning in my spelling of Anti-Semite. It is two different words and my spelling of it looked right as opposed to the other version. I may be wrong but I'm not going to worry about it.

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:28 pm I'm no Spurs fan but the reason that so many Israel flags are displayed at their games is that they refer to themselves as the Yid Army. Don't try to look for any deeper or political meaning.

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:56 pm

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:28 pm I'm no Spurs fan but the reason that so many Israel flags are displayed at their games is that they refer to themselves as the Yid Army. Don't try to look for any deeper or political meaning.

See this is where things get awkward through peoples laziness of when they describe what they are .


You mention yid army .

Yiddish is defined as a central/eastern european dialect & has its roots based firmly in Germany/prussia

The Flag of Israel incorporates the Star of David as the sign of Judaism With the Star & the blue stripes of the prayer Shawl
which forgive me i forget the name of .

So why call themselves Yids?
Flying an Israeli flag is not about yiddishness
It is about being jewish & more so being of roots
to Israeli genes.

Its like people in northern ireland who fly a Union flag & claim to be British , when the flag represents the union between ireland & great britain & as now northern ireland & great britain.

The flag has never represented Great Britain or Brtishness. (Britain defined as the island consisting of England Scotland & Wales)

It represents only the UNION but lazily people think it means less or more .


So back to the point .

Should UEFA fine the spuds for games inder there control where Israeli flags are flown ?

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:25 pm https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisem ... prov=sfla1

The term may be spelled with or without a hyphen (antisemitism or anti-Semitism). Many scholars and institutions favor the unhyphenated form. Shmuel Almog argued, "If you use the hyphenated form, you consider the words 'Semitism', 'Semite', 'Semitic' as meaningful ... n antisemitic parlance, 'Semites' really stands for Jews, just that." Emil Fackenheim supported the unhyphenated spelling, in order to "[dispel] the notion that there is an entity 'Semitism' which 'anti-Semitism' opposes." Others endorsing an unhyphenated term for the same reason include the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, historian Deborah Lipstadt,Padraic O'Hare, professor of Religious and Theological Studies and Director of the Center for the Study of Jewish-Christian-Muslim Relations at Merrimack College; and historians Yehuda Bauer and James Carroll. According to Carroll, who first cites O'Hare and Bauer on "the existence of something called 'Semitism'", "the hyphenated word thus reflects the bipolarity that is at the heart of the problem of antisemitism".

Objections to the usage of the term, such as the obsolete nature of the term Semitic as a racial term, have been raised since at least the 1930s.


So there is a difference although im not sure exactly if it means anything in day to day life but clearly more educated people than I feel it is important.

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:32 pm

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:56 pm

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:28 pm I'm no Spurs fan but the reason that so many Israel flags are displayed at their games is that they refer to themselves as the Yid Army. Don't try to look for any deeper or political meaning.

See this is where things get awkward through peoples laziness of when they describe what they are .


You mention yid army .

Yiddish is defined as a central/eastern european dialect & has its roots based firmly in Germany/prussia

The Flag of Israel incorporates the Star of David as the sign of Judaism With the Star & the blue stripes of the prayer Shawl
which forgive me i forget the name of .

So why call themselves Yids?
Flying an Israeli flag is not about yiddishness
It is about being jewish & more so being of roots
to Israeli genes.

Its like people in northern ireland who fly a Union flag & claim to be British , when the flag represents the union between ireland & great britain & as now northern ireland & great britain.

The flag has never represented Great Britain or Brtishness. (Britain defined as the island consisting of England Scotland & Wales)

It represents only the UNION but lazily people think it means less or more .


So back to the point .

Should UEFA fine the spuds for games inder there control where Israeli flags are flown ?

You can post what you want and claim it is a result of laziness but anyone who knows anything about football, it's fans, and its culture know that Spurs fans refer to themselves as the Yid Army and Yiddos and regularly chant these references at games. As a result some of them carry and display the Israel flag.

So if any attempt was made to fine them for displaying these flags then Spurs would no doubt appeal against it. In much the same way that they do not want their fans to be banned for chanting these words, although happy for opposition fans to be stopped, as they support their fans beliefs that they are 'reclaiming' the word in the same way that it is accepted as being ok for black people to refer to themselves as 'n*****s'.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:53 pm

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:25 pm https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisem ... prov=sfla1

The term may be spelled with or without a hyphen (antisemitism or anti-Semitism). Many scholars and institutions favor the unhyphenated form. Shmuel Almog argued, "If you use the hyphenated form, you consider the words 'Semitism', 'Semite', 'Semitic' as meaningful ... n antisemitic parlance, 'Semites' really stands for Jews, just that." Emil Fackenheim supported the unhyphenated spelling, in order to "[dispel] the notion that there is an entity 'Semitism' which 'anti-Semitism' opposes." Others endorsing an unhyphenated term for the same reason include the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, historian Deborah Lipstadt,Padraic O'Hare, professor of Religious and Theological Studies and Director of the Center for the Study of Jewish-Christian-Muslim Relations at Merrimack College; and historians Yehuda Bauer and James Carroll. According to Carroll, who first cites O'Hare and Bauer on "the existence of something called 'Semitism'", "the hyphenated word thus reflects the bipolarity that is at the heart of the problem of antisemitism".

Objections to the usage of the term, such as the obsolete nature of the term Semitic as a racial term, have been raised since at least the 1930s.


So there is a difference although im not sure exactly if it means anything in day to day life but clearly more educated people than I feel it is important.

Bloody hell I didn't know there was a whole industry to deal with it. Can you check that it's ok to use a capital A in my version. Cheers

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp ... husjsvaExg

The difference between a common noun or proper noun is not easy to define im afraid

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:53 am Brought to you direct from Thor Towers breaking news on another Labour MP Rupa Huq has been accused of anti semetism and is to be investigated by the Labour Party. It’s good to see prompt action being taken in respect to the investigation however, how deep does this issue goes through the party?

We will be breaking further news as it arrives at Thor Towers.