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Well I haven't heard you mention Christian sex grooming groups much. Do they count or are you happy to turn a blind eye to them?Ornchurch wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:35 pmAhhh. Selective grooming.
How does this impact on dunnem?Ornchurch wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:26 pmI would have thought so as there are enough Muslim sex grooming groups about, especially in the north of England.Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:40 amYou seem to have gone off the Muslims.Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:31 am Oh please. It really isn’t as simple as it being a case of her being groomed. When did it become a thing for this lazy default to victim status as an excuse for narcissistic arseholes doing c*ntish things? This is an insult to actual victims of real grooming, who were specifically targeted by their abusers.
She actively sought this stuff out herself. She deliberately went to a region and ideology knowing full well that it would be her job to spread her legs to reward its soldiers for their butchery, rape and brutalisation of infidels. The knowledge of what was happening there, and what would be expected from her, was hardly a secret. It was actively celebrated and glorified, but these arseholes justified it in their own heads as they had ‘reasons’.
And I’m not saying this as one of the dim-witted “let her rot there” brigade, as I fully believe the UK has a responsibility to bring her back here. But this wet nonsense needs to be called out. Next thing you’ll be nominating her for a Pride of Britain award.
Yes, she was young and that needs to be considered. Yes, we all did stupid things when we were young. But I think most people know where to draw the line, and mine was at the point of decapitating journalists, raping women and strapping vests packed with explosives to six year olds. And it is reasonable for society to expect its citizens, even at the age of 15, to get that.
Your post comes across as angry and lacking in understanding. You do know how grooming works, right?
I’d like to see all members of sex gangs prosecuted and imprisoned rather than the police and authorities be afraid to tackle them due to their religion. Like the vast majority of people I’d like to see everyone treated equally.Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:38 pmWell I haven't heard you mention Christian sex grooming groups much. Do they count or are you happy to turn a blind eye to them?
I seem to be caught in the middle of two sets of extremists. On one side are the apologists, on the other are the racists.Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:42 pmHow does this impact on dunnem?Ornchurch wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:26 pmI would have thought so as there are enough Muslim sex grooming groups about, especially in the north of England.Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:40 am
You seem to have gone off the Muslims.
Your post comes across as angry and lacking in understanding. You do know how grooming works, right?
So you don't know to what extent she was groomed. Thanks for letting us know.Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:58 pmI seem to be caught in the middle of two sets of extremists. On one side are the apologists, on the other are the racists.
I think it's is reasonable to believe in the following:
- Shamima, and others, were caught up in a particular cultural zeitgeist that for a variety of reasons appealed to them.
- Her and her school friends did their research into ISIS propaganda and of their own agency plotted to leave the UK and join ISIS and to be part of what it embodied.
- To a degree, yes, her young age and immaturity will have contributed to her actions. However, it is also reasonable to expect a 15-year old to have known better.
- To what degree grooming may or may not have played a part in this is unknown.
- Now she is being treated unfairly and, most probably illegally, by our government. Many others who joined ISIS have already returned home, but managed to avoid the publicity.
- The government are clearly weaponising her situation and playing to a particular gallery, which sets a dangerous precedent and undermines UK credibility with our international partners.
Is that okay?
- She should be brought home. There is very little chance she can be prosecuted for any particular crimes, but we owe it to ourselves to do the right thing and set an example that we can be better that the likes of ISIS.
Nah. I prefer your spread her legs theory.Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:58 pmI seem to be caught in the middle of two sets of extremists. On one side are the apologists, on the other are the racists.
I think it's is reasonable to believe in the following:
- Shamima, and others, were caught up in a particular cultural zeitgeist that for a variety of reasons appealed to them.
- Her and her school friends did their research into ISIS propaganda and of their own agency plotted to leave the UK and join ISIS and to be part of what it embodied.
- To a degree, yes, her young age and immaturity will have contributed to her actions. However, it is also reasonable to expect a 15-year old to have known better.
- To what degree grooming may or may not have played a part in this is unknown.
- Now she is being treated unfairly and, most probably illegally, by our government. Many others who joined ISIS have already returned home, but managed to avoid the publicity.
- The government are clearly weaponising her situation and playing to a particular gallery, which sets a dangerous precedent and undermines UK credibility with our international partners.
Is that okay?
- She should be brought home. There is very little chance she can be prosecuted for any particular crimes, but we owe it to ourselves to do the right thing and set an example that we can be better that the likes of ISIS.
And neither does you or anyone else on here. And yet:Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:29 pm
So you don't know to what extent she was groomed. Thanks for letting us know.
and...
hence my...
So, yeah, I think my approach is the reasonable one.
I think we were both making brief WUM like points to suggest you were a bit wide of the mark in your rantalysis.Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:36 pmAnd neither does you or anyone else on here. And yet:Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:29 pm
So you don't know to what extent she was groomed. Thanks for letting us know.
and...
hence my...
So, yeah, I think my approach is the reasonable one.
I guess any credible and corroborated evidence that she was actually 'groomed' would be a good place to start.Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:40 pmI think we were both making brief WUM like points to suggest you were a bit wide of the mark in your rantalysis.Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:36 pmAnd neither does you or anyone else on here. And yet:Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:29 pm
So you don't know to what extent she was groomed. Thanks for letting us know.
and...
hence my...
So, yeah, I think my approach is the reasonable one.
How can we conclude that your approach is reasonable if we are still working with the extent of the grooming still unkown.
Now we're making progress. Your demand for evidence of grooming (and coercion?) is most welcome. Round up the horses put them back in the stables and bolt that doorDunners wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:46 pmI guess any credible and corroborated evidence that she was actually 'groomed' would be a good place to start.Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:40 pmI think we were both making brief WUM like points to suggest you were a bit wide of the mark in your rantalysis.
How can we conclude that your approach is reasonable if we are still working with the extent of the grooming still unkown.
And ol' Hotdogs actually made his claim that "She was groomed, it’s as simple as that" a whole 49 minutes before I posted by supremely expert analysis.
I know you put it in a nice list and it looks ever so factual, but it would be good to see some actual evidence to support your claim that:Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:46 pmI guess any credible and corroborated evidence that she was actually 'groomed' would be a good place to start.Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:40 pmI think we were both making brief WUM like points to suggest you were a bit wide of the mark in your rantalysis.
How can we conclude that your approach is reasonable if we are still working with the extent of the grooming still unkown.
And ol' Hotdogs actually made his claim that "She was groomed, it’s as simple as that" a whole 49 minutes before I posted by supremely expert analysis.
Maybe we should have a trial where we could actually establish the facts and properly decide on her guilt, or otherwise. Why hasn’t anyone else thought of this yet?Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:49 pmNow we're making progress. Your demand for evidence of grooming (and coercion?) is most welcome. Round up the horses put them back in the stables and bolt that doorDunners wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:46 pmI guess any credible and corroborated evidence that she was actually 'groomed' would be a good place to start.Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:40 pm
I think we were both making brief WUM like points to suggest you were a bit wide of the mark in your rantalysis.
How can we conclude that your approach is reasonable if we are still working with the extent of the grooming still unkown.
And ol' Hotdogs actually made his claim that "She was groomed, it’s as simple as that" a whole 49 minutes before I posted by supremely expert analysis.
How else did she get out there? Uber?Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:35 pm
I know you put it in a nice list and it looks ever so factual, but it would be good to see some actual evidence to support your claim that:
“Her and her school friends did their research into ISIS propaganda and of their own agency plotted to leave the UK and join ISIS”
Most 14/15 year olds struggle to keep their bedroom tidy and hand their homework in on time, but this child was able to research a terrorist organisation and plot a route halfway round the world to get there? Right oh.
Yes and you can pay all her court costs, well done youRonnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:36 pmMaybe we should have a trial where we could actually establish the facts and properly decide on her guilt, or otherwise. Why hasn’t anyone else thought of this yet?Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:49 pmNow we're making progress. Your demand for evidence of grooming (and coercion?) is most welcome. Round up the horses put them back in the stables and bolt that doorDunners wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:46 pm
I guess any credible and corroborated evidence that she was actually 'groomed' would be a good place to start.
And ol' Hotdogs actually made his claim that "She was groomed, it’s as simple as that" a whole 49 minutes before I posted by supremely expert analysis.
I wasn't listing facts. What I clearly said was "I think it's is reasonable to believe in the following."Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:35 pm
I know you put it in a nice list and it looks ever so factual, but it would be good to see some actual evidence to support your claim that:
“Her and her school friends did their research into ISIS propaganda and of their own agency plotted to leave the UK and join ISIS”
Most 14/15 year olds struggle to keep their bedroom tidy and hand their homework in on time, but this child was able to research a terrorist organisation and plot a route halfway round the world to get there? Right oh.
So, was she groomed or not?Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:37 pmI wasn't listing facts. What I clearly said was "I think it's is reasonable to believe in the following."Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:35 pm
I know you put it in a nice list and it looks ever so factual, but it would be good to see some actual evidence to support your claim that:
“Her and her school friends did their research into ISIS propaganda and of their own agency plotted to leave the UK and join ISIS”
Most 14/15 year olds struggle to keep their bedroom tidy and hand their homework in on time, but this child was able to research a terrorist organisation and plot a route halfway round the world to get there? Right oh.
Having read and heard plenty of accounts from people held in the ISIS camps, online information and guidance on how to travel was prolific at the time. ISIS invested considerable time and effort into designing effective communication that was easy to follow, as they had a vested interest in attracting as many recruits as possible.
And it really wasn't that complicated, or halfway round the world. You took a direct flight from the UK into Turkey and from there there were plenty of routes being advertised to the Syrian border. Most of this could be travelled using local buses. There's some similarity with how open and brazen some of the immigration routes are being advertised in Turkey for those trying to get into parts of Europe and the UK.
Sure, I get it that this would have been daunting for many 15 year olds. But you need to factor in their belief, determination and that they would have eventually been in the company of fellow recruits on that same journey. It's important not to underestimate the shared-experience/joy factor, as they all headed off on their wonderful little adventure.
The profile of Shamina previously was that she was a smart and promising student, so she needs to be given some credit that she may have been intelligent enough to follow instructions and guidance, and not a passive grooming victim. I recall on the BBC an estimate that something in the region of 900 Britons may have gone to join ISIS. That's just from Britain. I have no idea how many from across the rest of the world also made that decision and journey but, given that a percentage of them would have been thickos, ISIS communication will have been idiot-proof. It had to be.
Sure, I accept it's entirely possible that Shamina and her school friends got extra special attention and treatment that the thousands of others didn't. But my point is that it wouldn't have been necessary, as anyone captivated by the 'allure' of the caliphate would have found easy-to-follow instructions that any idiot could understand. Even a child.
I think you'll find that, as one of those making the claim that she was groomed, the burden of proof is upon you.Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:47 pmSo, was she groomed or not?Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:37 pmI wasn't listing facts. What I clearly said was "I think it's is reasonable to believe in the following."Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:35 pm
I know you put it in a nice list and it looks ever so factual, but it would be good to see some actual evidence to support your claim that:
“Her and her school friends did their research into ISIS propaganda and of their own agency plotted to leave the UK and join ISIS”
Most 14/15 year olds struggle to keep their bedroom tidy and hand their homework in on time, but this child was able to research a terrorist organisation and plot a route halfway round the world to get there? Right oh.
Having read and heard plenty of accounts from people held in the ISIS camps, online information and guidance on how to travel was prolific at the time. ISIS invested considerable time and effort into designing effective communication that was easy to follow, as they had a vested interest in attracting as many recruits as possible.
And it really wasn't that complicated, or halfway round the world. You took a direct flight from the UK into Turkey and from there there were plenty of routes being advertised to the Syrian border. Most of this could be travelled using local buses. There's some similarity with how open and brazen some of the immigration routes are being advertised in Turkey for those trying to get into parts of Europe and the UK.
Sure, I get it that this would have been daunting for many 15 year olds. But you need to factor in their belief, determination and that they would have eventually been in the company of fellow recruits on that same journey. It's important not to underestimate the shared-experience/joy factor, as they all headed off on their wonderful little adventure.
The profile of Shamina previously was that she was a smart and promising student, so she needs to be given some credit that she may have been intelligent enough to follow instructions and guidance, and not a passive grooming victim. I recall on the BBC an estimate that something in the region of 900 Britons may have gone to join ISIS. That's just from Britain. I have no idea how many from across the rest of the world also made that decision and journey but, given that a percentage of them would have been thickos, ISIS communication will have been idiot-proof. It had to be.
Sure, I accept it's entirely possible that Shamina and her school friends got extra special attention and treatment that the thousands of others didn't. But my point is that it wouldn't have been necessary, as anyone captivated by the 'allure' of the caliphate would have found easy-to-follow instructions that any idiot could understand. Even a child.
All those words wot you wrote just add up to you saying "this is what I think it is reasonable for me and everyone else to believe" and again there is scant evidence to support your beliefs and assertions. This is the kind of thing Trump and his trumpets do.
