Independent Leyton Orient Forum

A Pedant wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:06 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:59 am

A Pedant wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:45 am
Didn't need to be, the terms were set out on the website in the season ticket T&Cs:

Games Played Behind Closed Doors

Should any games be designated by either Government or Football Authorities to be played behind closed doors the Club will offer the ability to watch the game via its streaming service to all Season Card Holders in lieu of gaining entry to the Stadium for home league matches.

So terms can just be buried on the website somewhere? I have also not received my card yet. It says if I do not accept the terms I can cancel.

Hardly buried. There was a big paragraph on the season cards page about FAQs with a link to an FAQs page. One of the FAQs was:

WHAT HAPPENS IF ANY HOME GAMES DURING THE 2020/21 SEASON ARE PLAYED BEHIND CLOSED DOORS?

If this situation arises then all Season Card holders will be provided with access to watch home league games on Orient TV. Please view the Terms and Conditions by clicking the link at the bottom of the page.

...and at the bottom of the page is said link to T&Cs.

BoniO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:08 am Look, we've all saved shitloads of money from not going out during lockdown so why not let the O's have some of it?

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:51 am

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:42 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:30 am You must offer a refund to customers if they’ve told you within 14 days of receiving their goods that they want to cancel. They have another 14 days to return the goods once they’ve told you.

You must refund the customer within 14 days of receiving the goods back. They do not have to provide a reason.

They werent purchasing ,
They were Renewing what they already own
There previous seasons seat

No that's not going to wash.

spen666 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:10 am

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:01 am The fair thing for the club would be to reduce the price of thd following season’s ST if they don’t want to issue partial refunds.

If i’d have known they would have done this, then I would have got my refund for last season instead of deferring it to this ST

Why would there be any question of refunds partial or otherwise.
The tickets were sold on basis that if games were BCD then there would be streaming made available and no refunds.

People are getting exactly what they contracted

BoniO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:08 am Look, we've all saved shitloads of money from not going out during lockdown so why not let the O's have some of it?

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:31 am

BoniO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:08 am Look, we've all saved shitloads of money from not going out during lockdown so why not let the O's have some of it?

Yeah, working class people give a £300+ donation to a club owned by a couple of millionaires

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:31 am

BoniO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:08 am Look, we've all saved shitloads of money from not going out during lockdown so why not let the O's have some of it?

Yeah, working class people give a £300+ donation to a club owned by a couple of millionaires

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:30 am What has an offer got to do with anything?

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:31 am

BoniO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:08 am Look, we've all saved shitloads of money from not going out during lockdown so why not let the O's have some of it?

Yeah, working class people give a £300+ donation to a club owned by a couple of millionaires

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:01 am I think people are missing the point. The terms state it, people signed up, yes theres no legal requirement for the club to do anything. No one is going to successfully take them to court.

The point being made is not a legal one, it's a moral one. There's not a right or wrong answer, or an easy answer, but in my opinion, loyal ST holders shouldn't be worse off financially and in the same boat as non ST. I dont think thats unreasonable but understand why the club wouldn't and probably wont do anything.

BoniO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:46 am The owners decided to put their money into the club for whatever reasons but I doubt, very much, that they saw it as a "get rich quick" scheme. They'd have to be some kind of idiots to think that and there's plenty of evidence from other clubs going under to show just how unlikely this would be the outcome.

Then Covid comes along and knocks everything for six. They're affected like everyone else. Sure they've got more money than most to fall back on but I'd wager that both Kent and Nigel have suffered personal losses due to Covid. No violins needed, but this is probably true.

We know the O's lost an additional £1.5m due to covid - and that's probably still rising. The owners are having to pick up the tab.

If I was one of the owners, I'd hope to see a reciprocal commitment to the club from the fans. If that commitment from the fans wasn't there I'd be seriously questioning why I was bothering to sink my money into the club. With regard to ST sales, the fans have demonstrated a strong level of commitment and I'm just one who is happy to have done that. If all I get to see this season is streamed games then so be it. Add to this that it was clear what the situation was before buying a ST and I really can't see why anyone would be considering refunds, period.

RedO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:13 am

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:01 am I think people are missing the point. The terms state it, people signed up, yes theres no legal requirement for the club to do anything. No one is going to successfully take them to court.

The point being made is not a legal one, it's a moral one. There's not a right or wrong answer, or an easy answer, but in my opinion, loyal ST holders shouldn't be worse off financially and in the same boat as non ST. I dont think thats unreasonable but understand why the club wouldn't and probably wont do anything.

There is no moral issue either.

The club couldn't have made the position any clearer.

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:41 pm How much of their own money did they put in to the club?

RedO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:32 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:46 am The owners decided to put their money into the club for whatever reasons but I doubt, very much, that they saw it as a "get rich quick" scheme. They'd have to be some kind of idiots to think that and there's plenty of evidence from other clubs going under to show just how unlikely this would be the outcome.

Then Covid comes along and knocks everything for six. They're affected like everyone else. Sure they've got more money than most to fall back on but I'd wager that both Kent and Nigel have suffered personal losses due to Covid. No violins needed, but this is probably true.

We know the O's lost an additional £1.5m due to covid - and that's probably still rising. The owners are having to pick up the tab.

If I was one of the owners, I'd hope to see a reciprocal commitment to the club from the fans. If that commitment from the fans wasn't there I'd be seriously questioning why I was bothering to sink my money into the club. With regard to ST sales, the fans have demonstrated a strong level of commitment and I'm just one who is happy to have done that. If all I get to see this season is streamed games then so be it. Add to this that it was clear what the situation was before buying a ST and I really can't see why anyone would be considering refunds, period.

We all know why Nigel put his money into the club. He’s a fan.

We don’t know why Kent did. Nor do we know why the other unknown investors have put their money in.

How do you know that they’ve suffered personal losses because of Covid? Lots of wealthy people are doing very well out of this. (Lots aren’t as well, and want us proles back to work so we can start making them money again, that’s also true).

Dunners wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:51 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:13 am

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:01 am I think people are missing the point. The terms state it, people signed up, yes theres no legal requirement for the club to do anything. No one is going to successfully take them to court.

The point being made is not a legal one, it's a moral one. There's not a right or wrong answer, or an easy answer, but in my opinion, loyal ST holders shouldn't be worse off financially and in the same boat as non ST. I dont think thats unreasonable but understand why the club wouldn't and probably wont do anything.

There is no moral issue either.

The club couldn't have made the position any clearer.

Actually, there is a moral issue; it's about the sanctity of the concept of a promise. Or, in other words, contractual terms and conditions. It's one of the key pillars on which modern civilisation is built. When people think it's okay to pick and chose which terms they should accept after they have agreed to something, that leads to chaos and anarchy. Or multiple pages of pointless whining on a message board. One or the other.

PS. Someone should tell the government this.

BoniO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:54 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:32 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:46 am The owners decided to put their money into the club for whatever reasons but I doubt, very much, that they saw it as a "get rich quick" scheme. They'd have to be some kind of idiots to think that and there's plenty of evidence from other clubs going under to show just how unlikely this would be the outcome.

Then Covid comes along and knocks everything for six. They're affected like everyone else. Sure they've got more money than most to fall back on but I'd wager that both Kent and Nigel have suffered personal losses due to Covid. No violins needed, but this is probably true.

We know the O's lost an additional £1.5m due to covid - and that's probably still rising. The owners are having to pick up the tab.

If I was one of the owners, I'd hope to see a reciprocal commitment to the club from the fans. If that commitment from the fans wasn't there I'd be seriously questioning why I was bothering to sink my money into the club. With regard to ST sales, the fans have demonstrated a strong level of commitment and I'm just one who is happy to have done that. If all I get to see this season is streamed games then so be it. Add to this that it was clear what the situation was before buying a ST and I really can't see why anyone would be considering refunds, period.

We all know why Nigel put his money into the club. He’s a fan.

We don’t know why Kent did. Nor do we know why the other unknown investors have put their money in.

How do you know that they’ve suffered personal losses because of Covid? Lots of wealthy people are doing very well out of this. (Lots aren’t as well, and want us proles back to work so we can start making them money again, that’s also true).

I said "I'd wager they suffered losses", I didn't state that I knew. Try again.

As for why investors put money in, if it really is purely to make a fast buck then they're even dumber than Thor........