Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Story of O wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:12 pm I sometimes wonder what certain people expect of league 2 players. Just watched Man City lose to Norwich, and their defence and midfield made quite a few mistakes. If our players had done the same thing, they would have been torn apart on here.

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:58 pm

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:52 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:27 pm A good defence does not turn bad over night, what goes wrong is the coaching and what they are being asked to do.

Last season around xmas time we started shipping goals and you could see that JE got them out on the training pitch and worked on shape, positioning etc. And then we had a few games of not conceding again and the defensive unit went back to being solid. It takes work and direction.

It seems to me from the games I've been to the shape, positioning and instructions have changed from what they were being asked last season. For example last week it was pretty clear that even after just 3 mins the instruction was to not press the opposition. That's a massive change and invites pressure on to the back line.

The big difference being in that JE was an experienced manager who had played as a defender in the Premier league and knew how to set up teams, especially defensively as against RE who is far less experienced in football management and was never good enough as a player to have played in any of the English Football League teams.

Not sure that's relevant though. The standard of past football career is not necessarily an indicator of whether someone is a good manager/able to set up a team more effectively.

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:06 am Arsene Wenger didn't play professional football at all. Don't think Jurgen Klopp was anything other than a German second division player.

Loads of example of failed managers who played at the top level too. Sid likes to hark on about the olden days so Bobby Moore might be a reasonable example of a top class player who didn't become a top class manager. So not sure where this idea has come from that being a top level player means you're a better manager than someone who wasn't.

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:32 pm And we have a completely new strikeforce when last season we had one that could take a massive amount of pressure off the defence. And we’re playing a different system.

It’s a combination of many things. And remember everyone has defensive responsibilities, not just the back four.

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:45 am What about managers that win a lot but we're just ordinary players
There appears no relationship to a players own ability and then when they become a manager

gshaw wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:25 pm

Story of O wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:12 pm I sometimes wonder what certain people expect of league 2 players. Just watched Man City lose to Norwich, and their defence and midfield made quite a few mistakes. If our players had done the same thing, they would have been torn apart on here.

First and foremost that they have a go, which today was far better than the frankly embarrassing capitulation last week against Swindon.

Whether Ross was always planning on the 4-5-1 this week or was forced into it due to Happe being missing is up for debate but there's no doubt having Marsh in the middle made a positive impact. Sounds like less aimless hoofball too with Dennis and JMD in the side.

However Ross he showed his naivety again with the substitutions when we needed to see the game out. When will he learn Alabi isn't the answer?

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:07 am

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:06 am Arsene Wenger didn't play professional football at all. Don't think Jurgen Klopp was anything other than a German second division player.

Loads of example of failed managers who played at the top level too. Sid likes to hark on about the olden days so Bobby Moore might be a reasonable example of a top class player who didn't become a top class manager. So not sure where this idea has come from that being a top level player means you're a better manager than someone who wasn't.

Spot on. Geoff Hurst and Bobby Charlton also illustrate your point.

RedO wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:51 pm What’s Gorman shown?

O my gawd wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:00 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:07 am

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:06 am Arsene Wenger didn't play professional football at all. Don't think Jurgen Klopp was anything other than a German second division player.

Loads of example of failed managers who played at the top level too. Sid likes to hark on about the olden days so Bobby Moore might be a reasonable example of a top class player who didn't become a top class manager. So not sure where this idea has come from that being a top level player means you're a better manager than someone who wasn't.

Spot on. Geoff Hurst and Bobby Charlton also illustrate your point.

& also Alan Ball, Bobby Moore, Nobby Stiles & Martin Peters tried their hand at management without much success.
How many ex-O's players have been successful in management ?
Glenn Roeder was a great player but had a terrible record as a boss. My Dad had to go back as far as Dave Sexton to think of one.

Lovejoy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:35 pm

O my gawd wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:00 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:07 am

Spot on. Geoff Hurst and Bobby Charlton also illustrate your point.

& also Alan Ball, Bobby Moore, Nobby Stiles & Martin Peters tried their hand at management without much success.
How many ex-O's players have been successful in management ?
Glenn Roeder was a great player but had a terrible record as a boss. My Dad had to go back as far as Dave Sexton to think of one.

Alan Ball did have some success as a manager and was well and truly on the manager merry go round. Only he and Jack Charlton from the World Cup winning team could really be called successful.

O my gawd wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:48 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:25 pm

Story of O wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:12 pm I sometimes wonder what certain people expect of league 2 players. Just watched Man City lose to Norwich, and their defence and midfield made quite a few mistakes. If our players had done the same thing, they would have been torn apart on here.

First and foremost that they have a go, which today was far better than the frankly embarrassing capitulation last week against Swindon.

Whether Ross was always planning on the 4-5-1 this week or was forced into it due to Happe being missing is up for debate but there's no doubt having Marsh in the middle made a positive impact. Sounds like less aimless hoofball too with Dennis and JMD in the side.

However Ross he showed his naivety again with the substitutions when we needed to see the game out. When will he learn Alabi isn't the answer?

That's not a 4-5-1, with Dennis & JMD either side of Angol that's a 4-3-3. Very sensible to bring an extra CM into midfield & pleasing to see Gorman show what he is capable of in his last 3 appearances.

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:05 pm

O my gawd wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:48 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:25 pm

First and foremost that they have a go, which today was far better than the frankly embarrassing capitulation last week against Swindon.

Whether Ross was always planning on the 4-5-1 this week or was forced into it due to Happe being missing is up for debate but there's no doubt having Marsh in the middle made a positive impact. Sounds like less aimless hoofball too with Dennis and JMD in the side.

However Ross he showed his naivety again with the substitutions when we needed to see the game out. When will he learn Alabi isn't the answer?

That's not a 4-5-1, with Dennis & JMD either side of Angol that's a 4-3-3. Very sensible to bring an extra CM into midfield & pleasing to see Gorman show what he is capable of in his last 3 appearances.

You'd hope they'd tuck back in when defending to try and see out a game but then again bring Alabi on to do that role and shape goes out the window

The extra CM was absolutely required as Clay and Wright have been getting dominated the past few games. Whether Marsh / Wright would be more capable as a pair is interesting but no sense in changing a winning team so attack minded 4-3-3 for Tuesday.

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:48 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:05 pm

O my gawd wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:48 pm

That's not a 4-5-1, with Dennis & JMD either side of Angol that's a 4-3-3. Very sensible to bring an extra CM into midfield & pleasing to see Gorman show what he is capable of in his last 3 appearances.

You'd hope they'd tuck back in when defending to try and see out a game but then again bring Alabi on to do that role and shape goes out the window

The extra CM was absolutely required as Clay and Wright have been getting dominated the past few games. Whether Marsh / Wright would be more capable as a pair is interesting but no sense in changing a winning team so attack minded 4-3-3 for Tuesday.

Pygmalion, can you explain why Alabi keeps on coming on in front of Harrold? If it is because of the shop window argument, it ain’t working.

O my gawd wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:00 pm

Lovejoy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:35 pm

O my gawd wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:00 pm

& also Alan Ball, Bobby Moore, Nobby Stiles & Martin Peters tried their hand at management without much success.
How many ex-O's players have been successful in management ?
Glenn Roeder was a great player but had a terrible record as a boss. My Dad had to go back as far as Dave Sexton to think of one.

Alan Ball did have some success as a manager and was well and truly on the manager merry go round. Only he and Jack Charlton from the World Cup winning team could really be called successful.

The obvious ex O to make it in management is Dean Smith.
I stand corrected on Alan Ball as he was successful at Pompey & Exeter.

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:06 am Arsene Wenger didn't play professional football at all. Don't think Jurgen Klopp was anything other than a German second division player.

Loads of example of failed managers who played at the top level too. Sid likes to hark on about the olden days so Bobby Moore might be a reasonable example of a top class player who didn't become a top class manager. So not sure where this idea has come from that being a top level player means you're a better manager than someone who wasn't.

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:09 pm

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:06 am Arsene Wenger didn't play professional football at all. Don't think Jurgen Klopp was anything other than a German second division player.

Loads of example of failed managers who played at the top level too. Sid likes to hark on about the olden days so Bobby Moore might be a reasonable example of a top class player who didn't become a top class manager. So not sure where this idea has come from that being a top level player means you're a better manager than someone who wasn't.

Of course being an ex football player, regardless of what level you were does NOT make a guarantee to becoming a good manager.
But I did NOT go into that area of discussion !! What I DID say was quote.........

''The big difference being in that JE was an experienced manager who had played as a defender in the Premier league and knew how to set up teams, especially defensively as against RE who is far less experienced in football management and was never good enough as a player to have played in any of the English Football League teams.''

Well all true......... JE WAS an already experienced Football Manager before he joined us, HAD played as a defender in the Premier League and DID know how to setup teams, especially defensively !! Ok, care to dispute any of that ?

Next part...... Re IS far less experienced in football management than JE was....... again care to dispute that ?

Lastly, '' Re was never good enough as a player to have played in any of the English Football League teams.'' Again the TRUTH !!

Seems like you love to twist things around that are written on this forum to your own interpretations and pick arguments ( especially with me ) for the sake of it.

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:10 pm

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:09 pm

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:06 am Arsene Wenger didn't play professional football at all. Don't think Jurgen Klopp was anything other than a German second division player.

Loads of example of failed managers who played at the top level too. Sid likes to hark on about the olden days so Bobby Moore might be a reasonable example of a top class player who didn't become a top class manager. So not sure where this idea has come from that being a top level player means you're a better manager than someone who wasn't.

Of course being an ex football player, regardless of what level you were does NOT make a guarantee to becoming a good manager.
But I did NOT go into that area of discussion !! What I DID say was quote.........

''The big difference being in that JE was an experienced manager who had played as a defender in the Premier league and knew how to set up teams, especially defensively as against RE who is far less experienced in football management and was never good enough as a player to have played in any of the English Football League teams.''

Well all true......... JE WAS an already experienced Football Manager before he joined us, HAD played as a defender in the Premier League and DID know how to setup teams, especially defensively !! Ok, care to dispute any of that ?

Next part...... Re IS far less experienced in football management than JE was....... again care to dispute that ?

Lastly, '' Re was never good enough as a player to have played in any of the English Football League teams.'' Again the TRUTH !!

Seems like you love to twist things around that are written on this forum to your own interpretations and pick arguments ( especially with me ) for the sake of it.

So if the level that Edinburgh and Embleton had/hadn't played at was irrelevant then why mention it?