Thames Water - the ugly reality of 'Privatisation'

[Hoover Attack]

But what about the pensioners in Canadia and the Abu Dhabi sovereign wealth fund??

[Dunners]

Why doesn't Parliament pass a bill, something like "Emergency Re-Nationalisation of Public Utilities act" in which it outlines the Nationalisation of the Water Companies. It could stipulate that this is necessary because of the lack of investment in Infrastructure due to excessive dividends paid to shareholders - as such the Water Companies have failed in their duty to maintain and modernise the infrastructure to meet modern requirements. The Water Companies would be compulsorily purchased as an emergency measure to ensure needed investment was made. The needed investment, not performed by the Water Companies, would be very expensive and this cost would be taken into account against purchase price. Shareholders would run a mile and ditch shares overnight.

I know this isn't how it's normally done. Max and Hoover have given good explanations. But why not change the rules in favour of the UK population rather than money grabbing Companies and Shareholders? Or do we just continue to soak it up and watch more sewage dumps in our rivers and the sea whilst costs soar.

My guess is that this, and just about anything else that could signal renationalisation, would trigger reactions across global currency and gilt markets and result in a wave a second-order detrimental consequences to the UK economy, institutional investors and the public.

Just about everyone, even Tory voters, acknowledge that most privatisation has been a disaster. Nationalisation of utilities is popular across almost all constituencies to the degree that even Reform UK hint at it (but only because they know they'll never have to implement it).

The truth is that, once you embark down the road of privatisation and deregulation, going back on yourself requires an almost revolutionary act that mainstream politicians will just not be willing to take. The game is rigged so that any reversal could result in as much pain, if not more, than what privatisation has already delivered. It's really hard to unf*ck yourself.

[Max B Gold]

But what about the Markets?

From my post above outlining socialism for the rich you will have course reached the conclusion that the "market" as we know it is but a social construct and part of the ruling class ideology.

The market only survives because of state support financed by the taxpayer.

[BoniO]

But in reality.... this would affect a handful of Companies who control our Water and Waste. All of these Companies have failed to maintain the infrastructure appropriately. Their shareholders must know this - they'd be pretty stupid not to, it's hardly a secret - so the Shareholders also bear the responsibility of the Companies failings. I don't see why upsetting some shareholders and corrupt/inept Water Companies would rattle the market unduly.

[Long slender neck]

It'd make the numbers go the wrong way, the markets would 'lose confidence'

[BoniO]

Why doesn't Parliament pass a bill, something like "Emergency Re-Nationalisation of Public Utilities act" in which it outlines the Nationalisation of the Water Companies. It could stipulate that this is necessary because of the lack of investment in Infrastructure due to excessive dividends paid to shareholders - as such the Water Companies have failed in their duty to maintain and modernise the infrastructure to meet modern requirements. The Water Companies would be compulsorily purchased as an emergency measure to ensure needed investment was made. The needed investment, not performed by the Water Companies, would be very expensive and this cost would be taken into account against purchase price. Shareholders would run a mile and ditch shares overnight.

I know this isn't how it's normally done. Max and Hoover have given good explanations. But why not change the rules in favour of the UK population rather than money grabbing Companies and Shareholders? Or do we just continue to soak it up and watch more sewage dumps in our rivers and the sea whilst costs soar.

My guess is that this, and just about anything else that could signal renationalisation, would trigger reactions across global currency and gilt markets and result in a wave a second-order detrimental consequences to the UK economy, institutional investors and the public.

Just about everyone, even Tory voters, acknowledge that most privatisation has been a disaster. Nationalisation of utilities is popular across almost all constituencies to the degree that even Reform UK hint at it (but only because they know they'll never have to implement it).

The truth is that, once you embark down the road of privatisation and deregulation, going back on yourself requires an almost revolutionary act that mainstream politicians will just not be willing to take. The game is rigged so that any reversal could result in as much pain, if not more, than what privatisation has already delivered. It's really hard to unf*ck yourself.

I agree with all of that. But if we just shrug our shoulders and say "Hmm, looks difficult" we change nothing. I just don't accept that re-nationalisation is impossible. We're planning to do it with the railways aren't we. I'm not 100% sure, but I think I've read that the UK is the only Country Worldwide to have sold off it's water supply. It's a basic necessity for life. Why on Earth would we leave this to a Corporate entity?

[BoniO]

It'd make the numbers go the wrong way, the markets would 'lose confidence'

Quite possibly, but for how long until it bounced back. Would the "loss of confidence" caused by re-nationalising the Water Companies even register on the richter scale compared to Truss/Kwarteng's efforts?

[Dunners]

I agree with all of that. But if we just shrug our shoulders and say "Hmm, looks difficult" we change nothing. I just don't accept that re-nationalisation is impossible. We're planning to do it with the railways aren't we. I'm not 100% sure, but I think I've read that the UK is the only Country Worldwide to have sold off it's water supply. It's a basic necessity for life. Why on Earth would we leave this to a Corporate entity?

Renationalisation is possible. It's just that it would be made (deliberately) very painful. So much so that there's a good chance the party that implemented it would be voted out of office at the next election.

[Max B Gold]

Why doesn't Parliament pass a bill, something like "Emergency Re-Nationalisation of Public Utilities act" in which it outlines the Nationalisation of the Water Companies. It could stipulate that this is necessary because of the lack of investment in Infrastructure due to excessive dividends paid to shareholders - as such the Water Companies have failed in their duty to maintain and modernise the infrastructure to meet modern requirements. The Water Companies would be compulsorily purchased as an emergency measure to ensure needed investment was made. The needed investment, not performed by the Water Companies, would be very expensive and this cost would be taken into account against purchase price. Shareholders would run a mile and ditch shares overnight.

I know this isn't how it's normally done. Max and Hoover have given good explanations. But why not change the rules in favour of the UK population rather than money grabbing Companies and Shareholders? Or do we just continue to soak it up and watch more sewage dumps in our rivers and the sea whilst costs soar.

My guess is that this, and just about anything else that could signal renationalisation, would trigger reactions across global currency and gilt markets and result in a wave a second-order detrimental consequences to the UK economy, institutional investors and the public.

Just about everyone, even Tory voters, acknowledge that most privatisation has been a disaster. Nationalisation of utilities is popular across almost all constituencies to the degree that even Reform UK hint at it (but only because they know they'll never have to implement it).

The truth is that, once you embark down the road of privatisation and deregulation, going back on yourself requires an almost revolutionary act that mainstream politicians will just not be willing to take. The game is rigged so that any reversal could result in as much pain, if not more, than what privatisation has already delivered. It's really hard to unf*ck yourself.

There is some truth in what you say but not reversing a highly damaging clusterfuck just because it involves pain isn't a reason not to do it. Much in the same way as its not a reason to not have a revolution just because some people will die.

Also, it's not a matter of mainstream politicians having the boottle to push through change. Its a matter of them having been captured lock, stock and barrel. They are the political manifestation of the corporates that control our lives.

[BoniO]

I agree with all of that. But if we just shrug our shoulders and say "Hmm, looks difficult" we change nothing. I just don't accept that re-nationalisation is impossible. We're planning to do it with the railways aren't we. I'm not 100% sure, but I think I've read that the UK is the only Country Worldwide to have sold off it's water supply. It's a basic necessity for life. Why on Earth would we leave this to a Corporate entity?

Renationalisation is possible. It's just that it would be made (deliberately) very painful. So much so that there's a good chance the party that implemented it would be voted out of office at the next election.

I agree with that too. Short-termism is a paralysing force on Government but that's why the Government needs to perform these actions now so that any turbulence is forgotten before re-election becomes the focus. I know I'm not saying anything new here. Most Governments shy away from the big stuff in case it impacts their popularity.

[BoniO]

Why doesn't Parliament pass a bill, something like "Emergency Re-Nationalisation of Public Utilities act" in which it outlines the Nationalisation of the Water Companies. It could stipulate that this is necessary because of the lack of investment in Infrastructure due to excessive dividends paid to shareholders - as such the Water Companies have failed in their duty to maintain and modernise the infrastructure to meet modern requirements. The Water Companies would be compulsorily purchased as an emergency measure to ensure needed investment was made. The needed investment, not performed by the Water Companies, would be very expensive and this cost would be taken into account against purchase price. Shareholders would run a mile and ditch shares overnight.

I know this isn't how it's normally done. Max and Hoover have given good explanations. But why not change the rules in favour of the UK population rather than money grabbing Companies and Shareholders? Or do we just continue to soak it up and watch more sewage dumps in our rivers and the sea whilst costs soar.

My guess is that this, and just about anything else that could signal renationalisation, would trigger reactions across global currency and gilt markets and result in a wave a second-order detrimental consequences to the UK economy, institutional investors and the public.

Just about everyone, even Tory voters, acknowledge that most privatisation has been a disaster. Nationalisation of utilities is popular across almost all constituencies to the degree that even Reform UK hint at it (but only because they know they'll never have to implement it).

The truth is that, once you embark down the road of privatisation and deregulation, going back on yourself requires an almost revolutionary act that mainstream politicians will just not be willing to take. The game is rigged so that any reversal could result in as much pain, if not more, than what privatisation has already delivered. It's really hard to unf*ck yourself.

There is some truth in what you say but not reversing a highly damaging clusterfuck just because it involves pain isn't a reason not to do it. Much in the same way as its not a reason to not have a revolution just because some people will die.

Also, it's not a matter of mainstream politicians having the boottle to push through change. Its a matter of them having been captured lock, stock and barrel. They are the political manifestation of the corporates that control our lives.

This as well. I had hoped that having announced Nationalising the Railways that the Water Companies would follow. I live in hope (stupidly).

[Dunners]

The railways are owned by Network Rail, which is a state-controlled non-profit company. What is privatised (with one or two exceptions I think) are the train services. These were tendered as franchises however, during Covid, the franchise agreements were pretty much all converted into contractor/operator licences. As and when these expire, bringing them back into a state-controlled entity would not be such a big deal.

However, quangos like Network Rail just add an additional layer of complexity and cost to the operation, so it's not the same as being directly managed by a state department. Also, based on my experience of rail travel in other countries, I think a system of state-owned railways, and a balance of state-owned and private train operators can work quite well.

[Dunners]

...but utilities are a different matter altogether.

[BoniO]

The railways are owned by Network Rail, which is a state-controlled non-profit company. What is privatised (with one or two exceptions I think) are the train services. These were tendered as franchises however, during Covid, the franchise agreements were pretty much all converted into contractor/operator licences. As and when these expire, bringing them back into a state-controlled entity would not be such a big deal.

However, quangos like Network Rail just add an additional layer of complexity and cost to the operation, so it's not the same as being directly managed by a state department. Also, based on my experience of rail travel in other countries, I think a system of state-owned railways, and a balance of state-owned and private train operators can work quite well.

I meant the train operators. I'm aware Network Rail maintains the infrastructure. Also agree with your comments about rail travel in other Countries. We've fallen way behind many in Europe.

[Hoover Attack]

But in reality.... this would affect a handful of Companies who control our Water and Waste. All of these Companies have failed to maintain the infrastructure appropriately. Their shareholders must know this - they'd be pretty stupid not to, it's hardly a secret - so the Shareholders also bear the responsibility of the Companies failings. I don't see why upsetting some shareholders and corrupt/inept Water Companies would rattle the market unduly.

Because that's not the way. You can't just go around do things the wrong way.

[BoniO]

But in reality.... this would affect a handful of Companies who control our Water and Waste. All of these Companies have failed to maintain the infrastructure appropriately. Their shareholders must know this - they'd be pretty stupid not to, it's hardly a secret - so the Shareholders also bear the responsibility of the Companies failings. I don't see why upsetting some shareholders and corrupt/inept Water Companies would rattle the market unduly.

Because that's not the way. You can't just go around do things the wrong way.

I'm gonna click my heels together and make a wish - it worked for Dorothy...

[Wally Banter]

As your average ignorant / disengaged consumer, I hadn’t paid any attention to this issue - until receiving a Thames Water bill today which jacks up our bill to 100 POUNDS A MONTH. What in the name of fuckbuckets is that?

I’m assuming that, aside from writing to TW to tell them I genuinely hate them for bending me over a barrel like this, there’s nothing to be done? Well, aside from supporting anyone who has the power to let private companies like this crash and burn.

[BIGRON]

Just got my new bill which I pay weekly , up from £11.18p a week to £16.28p per week , that's some hike

[Proposition Joe]

I think some people are refusing to pay the amount that is allocated to repaying/reserving debts but not sure how that's going re being taken to Court etc.

[faldO]

I’m assuming that, aside from writing to TW to tell them I genuinely hate them for bending me over a barrel like this, there’s nothing to be done?

Are you metered?

The first thing I'd check is whether the increase is accurate. Everyone's bills are going up but is it a huge hike from what you currently pay? If you've got an online account with them you can get a fairly detailed breakdown. At least see whether what they are doing is correct based on your usage and the price increases.

[Wally Banter]

I’m assuming that, aside from writing to TW to tell them I genuinely hate them for bending me over a barrel like this, there’s nothing to be done?

Are you metered?

The first thing I'd check is whether the increase is accurate. Everyone's bills are going up but is it a huge hike from what you currently pay? If you've got an online account with them you can get a fairly detailed breakdown. At least see whether what they are doing is correct based on your usage and the price increases.

The price jump is over 35%, which seems in line with other people. I will do some more investigations though, thanks.

Off to invest in some Vaseline now.

[Hoover Attack]

Shop around mate. See if anyone else is doing any deals at the moment before you renew.

[Wally Banter]

Shop around mate. See if anyone else is doing any deals at the moment before you renew.

Water way to reduce my bill, thanks mH20.

To be fair, I could just walk 50 yards to the water leak in a nearby road which has been going for around 10 weeks now, and fill up a bucket or two.

[Currywurst and Chips]

ESW charge me £255 for the entire families’ in an out water for six months with one person working from home constantly.

£100pcm seems slightly on the high side

[StillSpike]

While my Dad was in the care home in Dunmow we got a ludicrously high water bill for his house that was empty, baring one of us visiting every 3 weeks or so.

The bill was based on actual meter readings, so we were concerned there was a leak somewhere. After weeks of back & forth, it turned out that the manhole containing the meters for the cul de sac was flooded, and the guys from the meter reading contractor had just been making them up based on guesswork.