The trans debate

[Proposition Joe]

New Canadian PM's child had treatment at the Tavistock and has written an essay about her/his experiences growing up:



Obviously saying this as someone who came to this thread from a very different standpoint, but it's absolutely lunatic. Seems basically to be arguing that a lot of young people have absolutely no idea what's going on - which, y'know, is fairly reasonable - but that that's the reason they should be able to access any kind of treatment available. Also, the tomboy in the Famous Five was trans, or something.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

Any chance of c&ping the text? Don’t have twitter nowadays even to look at

[Proposition Joe]

Will try. Turns out that's the wrong link anyway.

[Proposition Joe]

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

“London, the land of Enid Blyton murder mysteries” made me lol

Cheers
But yes, this is someone inadvertantly laying it out, albeit from within what happens rather than as an onlooker.

There’s no need for there to be a malicious “trans agenda” aimed at kids for kids to be impacted - what I argued all along is clearly shown here; if a society redefines the concepts of “boy”, “girl”, “man” and “woman” to be a feeling, as a way to support the rights of people with intense desires to be the opposite sex to feel validated in that, then the only way that “feeling” can be measured is in where people place themselves in relation to stereotypes of masculinity and femininity - and once you’re operating within that framework, then transness is an inevitable identity for someone who rejects stereotypes associated with their sex.
And children and young people who grow up in an environment where “transness” is seen as at worst neutral but sometimes as special/sacred by a certain type of parent, will quite clearly and logically think “I’m not a girl if I’m not feminine” rather than “I’m not a feminine girl”

The writer of the essay dismisses the idea of being confused, because there’s no experience of confusion - it’s straightforward; “I didn’t like dresses, I didn’t fit it the girl box I was put in by society, so I’m not a girl”

What’s interesting is how people don’t follow through though. There’s no space given to “George, like many girls who related to her, rejected femininity. She did not require hormones or surgery to be happy in her body and with her personality”

[Proposition Joe]

That's a fair point. It's been a few decades, but I did actually read a load of them and from memory nothing in any of the Secret Seven, Famous Five et al gave any indication that George, Billy, or whoever was anything other than...OK with who they were? They were cool with being a girl who liked 'boy' stuff and that was just fine. It wasn't any deeper than that. All these interpretations to justify whatever point one's trying to make seem increasingly desperate and actually dismiss the experiences of women and girls who just don't like 'traditionally girly stuff' but otherwise crack on.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

I mean, the counterpoint would be that Enid Blyton was not going to actually explore dysphoria and transness in the fifties anyway, but I think the point is that fundamentally there is nothing progressive whatsoever about making some character traits so taboo if they’re outside of stereotypes, that a person with those traits is encouraged to consider rejecting their sex.

There’s also something quite interesting in there about the aspirational aspect of it - being not quite inside the “in group” and looking on in envy at those who get to have the self actualisation of surgery and hormones.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

(it’s also why I think the word “cis” is so harmful in this context. It’s not about right wing normies being like “lol they impose new words on us all the time, stuffing it down our throats” - it’s that within those communities, as soon as you try on a new identity, the idea of being plain old “cis” is seen as mortifying, an insult that can only be imposed by regressive old meanies, while being queer gets you a pass into a supportive, loving queer community)

[Mistadobalina]

There's an interesting overlap that someone smarter than me can probably connect the dots on with the fact that we (the west) has an epidemic of over diagnosis and demand categorisation of things that are actually quite fluid. So it's not just gender identity - the massive rise in ADHD or autism diagnosis over the last few decades create issues as well, even if you accept that those things have been historically under reported.

People are less accepting of the idea of existing on a spectrum of behaviour and instead want a clear category that explains any characteristics that waver from a vague sense of 'normal', which very few people actually inhabit.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

There's an interesting overlap that someone smarter than me can probably connect the dots on with the fact that we (the west) has an epidemic of over diagnosis and demand categorisation of things that are actually quite fluid. So it's not just gender identity - the massive rise in ADHD or autism diagnosis over the last few decades create issues as well, even if you accept that those things have been historically under reported.

People are less accepting of the idea of existing on a spectrum of behaviour and instead want a clear category that explains any characteristics that waver from a vague sense of 'normal', which very few people actually inhabit.

I agree to some extent, but I think the problem is not so much diagnosis, but the popularisation of of the idea that pathologising such conditions is inherently wrong, and they should instead be viewed as identity groups - it’s in that context that there’s a massive overlap between very online people who are very vocally ADHD, autistic, non binary, use novel pronouns etc, as well as ever more needless labels for apparently minority sexuality groups like “aromantic” and “asexual” (and where a person whose bio states both “asexual” and “ptsd, sexual abuse survivor” can absolutely not ever, ever have it suggested that the various things might be related)

(I say that as a person who meets the diagnostic criteria for ADHD and then some, but for me, that knowledge is mostly something I try to use so I can recognise when an unhelpful way of thinking/acting is “at the wheel”, but is IMO obnoxious as an identity label that then expects the world to adjust around)

[Rich Tea Wellin]

Obnoxious is interesting. Why’d you think that?

It’s an interesting point. I do wonder (and oversimplification obvs) if a lot of this is the recent failing of real life communities. People naturally want to belong to something. Putting a label on something, whether that be trans, adhd, incel, etc… is all of a oneness. I have this group of people that understands me in a world that increasingly makes less sense.

[Dunners]

I do wonder (and oversimplification obvs) if a lot of this is the recent failing of real life communities.

I also wonder to what extent online socialising in leu of real world interaction is impacting on people. Gen Z hardly go out at all, and social media is an almost constant feature in their lives.

On the mental health watch thread, Wally Banter speculated on the pevalance of social media as something that we may look back on as a poisonous phenomenon in 50 years time. It wouldn't surprise me to find that, when I'm 80 years old at that time, I agree with him.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

“ Obnoxious is interesting. Why’d you think that?”

Not always but often, people who list their issues in their bios seem to do it as a disclaimer as if it then gives them free rein to not manage the negative impact of their apparent condition/identity on others.

[Proposition Joe]

I do wonder (and oversimplification obvs) if a lot of this is the recent failing of real life communities.

I also wonder to what extent online socialising in leu of real world interaction is impacting on people.

I'm a bit hot and cold on him but there was a decent Bill Burr bit about how, until pretty recently, if you felt a certain way or had certain weird thoughts, you kept them to yourself and just got on with it. But now it just takes a single Google search and you're part of 'a community' that validates you and any batshit view you opinions or feelings you might have.

[Mistadobalina]

There's an interesting overlap that someone smarter than me can probably connect the dots on with the fact that we (the west) has an epidemic of over diagnosis and demand categorisation of things that are actually quite fluid. So it's not just gender identity - the massive rise in ADHD or autism diagnosis over the last few decades create issues as well, even if you accept that those things have been historically under reported.

People are less accepting of the idea of existing on a spectrum of behaviour and instead want a clear category that explains any characteristics that waver from a vague sense of 'normal', which very few people actually inhabit.

I agree to some extent, but I think the problem is not so much diagnosis, but the popularisation of of the idea that pathologising such conditions is inherently wrong, and they should instead be viewed as identity groups - it’s in that context that there’s a massive overlap between very online people who are very vocally ADHD, autistic, non binary, use novel pronouns etc, as well as ever more needless labels for apparently minority sexuality groups like “aromantic” and “asexual” (and where a person whose bio states both “asexual” and “ptsd, sexual abuse survivor” can absolutely not ever, ever have it suggested that the various things might be related)

(I say that as a person who meets the diagnostic criteria for ADHD and then some, but for me, that knowledge is mostly something I try to use so I can recognise when an unhelpful way of thinking/acting is “at the wheel”, but is IMO obnoxious as an identity label that then expects the world to adjust around)

Over diagnosis is a problem if the outcomes are interventions that result are at best largely ineffective and at worst introduce unnecessary risks into someone's life (gender dysmorphia might be an example). A lot of research into the side effects of all sorts of psychiatric medication doesn't even look at risks (again, you could draw a parallel with the poor quality of outcome monitoring highlighted in the cass report). Purely anecdotal but I know quite a few people who've started on ADHD medication in their 30s, and I'm not really convinced that's a healthy development in how we treat what are often fairly normal issues in this day and age, like crap attention spans.

This would be less of an issue if the massive uptick in diagnosis actually seemed to be helping people, but there doesn't seem to be much evidence that it's doing much good. And it seems like it can amplify symptoms of people with milder cases by reinforcing the idea that what are often normal, difficult parts of life are actually a pathological issue that is an immutable part of their identity.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

yeah, I agree with all that

[Proposition Joe]

There's an interesting overlap that someone smarter than me can probably connect the dots on with the fact that we (the west) has an epidemic of over diagnosis and demand categorisation of things that are actually quite fluid. So it's not just gender identity - the massive rise in ADHD or autism diagnosis over the last few decades create issues as well, even if you accept that those things have been historically under reported.

People are less accepting of the idea of existing on a spectrum of behaviour and instead want a clear category that explains any characteristics that waver from a vague sense of 'normal', which very few people actually inhabit.

I agree to some extent, but I think the problem is not so much diagnosis, but the popularisation of of the idea that pathologising such conditions is inherently wrong, and they should instead be viewed as identity groups - it’s in that context that there’s a massive overlap between very online people who are very vocally ADHD, autistic, non binary, use novel pronouns etc, as well as ever more needless labels for apparently minority sexuality groups like “aromantic” and “asexual” (and where a person whose bio states both “asexual” and “ptsd, sexual abuse survivor” can absolutely not ever, ever have it suggested that the various things might be related)

(I say that as a person who meets the diagnostic criteria for ADHD and then some, but for me, that knowledge is mostly something I try to use so I can recognise when an unhelpful way of thinking/acting is “at the wheel”, but is IMO obnoxious as an identity label that then expects the world to adjust around)

Over diagnosis is a problem if the outcomes are interventions that result are at best largely ineffective and at worst introduce unnecessary risks into someone's life (gender dysmorphia might be an example). A lot of research into the side effects of all sorts of psychiatric medication doesn't even look at risks (again, you could draw a parallel with the poor quality of outcome monitoring highlighted in the cass report). Purely anecdotal but I know quite a few people who've started on ADHD medication in their 30s, and I'm not really convinced that's a healthy development in how we treat what are often fairly normal issues in this day and age, like crap attention spans.

This would be less of an issue if the massive uptick in diagnosis actually seemed to be helping people, but there doesn't seem to be much evidence that it's doing much good. And it seems like it can amplify symptoms of people with milder cases by reinforcing the idea that what are often normal, difficult parts of life are actually a pathological issue that is an immutable part of their identity.

This is a good post.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

The only thing that needs unpacking with that post in relation to this thread is that there’s the inherent contradiction within trans activism where on the one hand there’s the demand that trans identity is not seen by society as a mental health condition, not seen as something to pathologise, but should be a simple declaration of identity, not subject to gatekeeping by medical professionals, while simultaneously arguing for access to lifelong medical interventions to support their transition.
In that context, a diagnosis is seen by activists not as something to seek to get to help them alleviate suffering, but rather as unfair gatekeeping, that should instead be at most a simple admin procedure where people can’t and shouldn’t be denied affirmation of their identity.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

I do wonder (and oversimplification obvs) if a lot of this is the recent failing of real life communities.

I also wonder to what extent online socialising in leu of real world interaction is impacting on people. Gen Z hardly go out at all, and social media is an almost constant feature in their lives.

On the mental health watch thread, Wally Banter speculated on the pevalance of social media as something that we may look back on as a poisonous phenomenon in 50 years time. It wouldn't surprise me to find that, when I'm 80 years old at that time, I agree with him.

[DuvB]

A man can put on a dress and makeup, have his bits removed and re-modelled but his chromosomes will always say male. QED

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

I think you want page one of this thread m8

[Max B Gold]

A man can put on a dress and makeup, have his bits removed and re-modelled but his chromosomes will always say male. QED

A mere medical technicality.