Is Ling really the problem?

[Little Charlie]

I constantly hear this mentioned all the time, “Ling is the problem he’s the one who is brought in the players.
Well, knowing the man reasonably well, he is a lovely guy and only ever wants the best for the football club. I don’t think for one second he brings any player in without first consulting with RW.
They will discuss on what positions they need to bring in and then make a shortlist of what is available. They will then discuss who would be best to bring in. I think everyone can see that Charlie Kilman was definitely Richie‘s decision, I’m still failing to see’s what he says in the lad
But on top of all this, they both have to work within a budget. This is decided by the chairman and owners. If they don’t get given any money they have to look at loan players. I would be very surprised if we were paying more than around 30% of the loan players, wages. Speaking from experience, I know majority of Premier League clubs loan, their players out to lonely clubs For next to nothing so they can get experience playing senior football.

Someone before mention the state of the club from the top downwards, and I think that is more evident as the season progresses. It doesn’t seem like we are willing to take any sort of chances and the manager is left with the scraps.

All the owners seem worried about is improving the stadium in areas that nobody cares about. I still haven’t heard anyone say anything good about the new south stand bar

[DrWindy]

I don’t think anyone is solely to blame for the predicament we find ourselves in.

From the very top, we don’t seem to have the funds to compete at the level we want to.

I think ML and RW have made some bad decisions on players brought in and tactics on the pitch.

I also think there’s plenty of players who are underperforming and should be doing better.

It’s a combination of all of these factors which have landed us in this situation.

I certainly don’t blame ML on his own but he clearly should carry some responsibility. Like you I agree he only wants the club to do well.

[o-no]

I don't think anyone doubts he's a lovely bloke, but we have to believe that everything football related goes through him.

I'm sure we've all encountered tradesmen who'll tell you "I've been doing the job 30 years mate, no worries", then turn out not to be up to it. I think there's an element of this here.

We're not the same club we were in the NL. Lovely bloke, thanks for all you've done, but time for a change.

[Long slender neck]

I dont blame Ling, he has given us more promotions than anybody before.

If the budget isnt there then the recruitment is a lot more difficult.

The strategy to go for younger players has backfired and that strategy is down to the board, not Ling.

Sometimes signings dont work out and unfortunately there's been a few this year that have flopped.

[Little Charlie]

You need to look back and see what the differences between the National League and now. When we were in the National League, you would have called us a big fish and a little pond. Now we have come into a division full of big boys with big money and we’ve tried to do everything on the cheap and it is severely backfired.

That being said, I think majority of supporters can see the types of players that we have and they are clearly not good enough. So why does RW keep persisting on playing certain ways. Yesterday we nearly got caught a number of times playing the stupid balls out the back from goal kicks. Also, I couldn’t believe that he kept on bringing 11 players back for defending free kicks and corners. You’re playing a team three divisions below you and you’re giving yourself no outlet whatsoever.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

You do know that saying “that being said” doesn’t mean “the paragraph I just wrote doesn’t actually matter”

[Rich Tea Wellin]

Hi Martin

[Rich Tea Wellin]

I dont blame Ling, he has given us more promotions than anybody before.

If the budget isnt there then the recruitment is a lot more difficult.

The strategy to go for younger players has backfired and that strategy is down to the board, not Ling.

Sometimes signings dont work out and unfortunately there's been a few this year that have flopped.

Ling's past success (which is impressive) shouldn’t be a marker for his future success. It’s like saying that Paul McCallum scores 30 goals in the National league so you can’t blame him for scoring 2 at a championship club.

I believe that Ling has reached his natural ceiling. We all have them and it’s nothing to be ashamed of.

Agree the budget plays a part but for exactly that reason we need to start thinking about the two options we have with a small budget:
1) use it in a traditional way and get some decent players mixed with sub standard players you hope the manager can improve
2) use it in an untraditional way where you find the edge using analytics or different scouting methods to pick up players that will outperform what they cost.

Imo ling isn’t the second one. So, it’s up to the board.

If we continue to have similar transfer windows to the last two we are heading one way and the board need to be comfortable with that or they need to make a change.

[CEB2ElectricBoogaloo]

You’re playing down the “part” the budget plays.

Option 1, as you describe it, includes the bizarre idea of “planning” to have sub standard players, which would seem likely to have the outcome of not being as good as teams with bigger budgets.

Option 2, as you describe it, firstly, assumes that clubs with bigger budgets aren’t also maximising the value they get for their money by looking at analytics, but also downplays that looking for value for money in unexpected places (ie through loans or through scouting in lower leagues) is inherently risky - if it were not risky, again the bigger clubs would set up the infrastructure to better exploit that avenue.

The only way to actually test whether Ling has reached his ceiling - which he may well have, who knows? - would be if he had a budget aligned with the top 7 clubs, and the club’s final standing finishes significantly underperformed that over a period of a couple of years.

The director of football should be a long term position, less impacted by the day to day fluctuations of opinions.

It seems to me that, whatever Ling’s strengths or flaws, he is targeted for criticism not because there is a genuine case that he has underperformed over a length period, but simply because Wellens has credit in the bank with some fans, so they’d rather sniff for blood elsewhere for now

[PKM]

I dont blame Ling, he has given us more promotions than anybody before.

If the budget isnt there then the recruitment is a lot more difficult.

The strategy to go for younger players has backfired and that strategy is down to the board, not Ling.

Sometimes signings dont work out and unfortunately there's been a few this year that have flopped.

Ling's past success (which is impressive) shouldn’t be a marker for his future success. It’s like saying that Paul McCallum scores 30 goals in the National league so you can’t blame him for scoring 2 at a championship club.

I believe that Ling has reached his natural ceiling. We all have them and it’s nothing to be ashamed of.

Agree the budget plays a part but for exactly that reason we need to start thinking about the two options we have with a small budget:
1) use it in a traditional way and get some decent players mixed with sub standard players you hope the manager can improve
2) use it in an untraditional way where you find the edge using analytics or different scouting methods to pick up players that will outperform what they cost.

Imo ling isn’t the second one. So, it’s up to the board.

If we continue to have similar transfer windows to the last two we are heading one way and the board need to be comfortable with that or they need to make a change.

Or should that be changes? It seems that Kelman, Warrington, DJ were Wellens choices and RW has been on record several times stating that him and ML work together on transfers.
Player recruitment is one thing, but is RW really getting the best out of the current crop? Continual changes in line up/formations, subs that don’t work. I don’t think Richie is working at his best right now & I don’t think that fact should be blamed on Ling.

[RedDwarf 1881]

Truth is they are all to blame . The board for not competing properly for players and Richie and Lingy for choosing poorly in the transfer market with whatever money we did have . On top of that without anybody with the number 9 shirt we’re a striker short . Who could have foreseen that starting the season with only two proper strikers wasn’t going to be enough

[DuvB]

Not having enough money for wages is the problem. The wages that the top 6 are paying inflated every players' demands

[OyinbO]

Martin Ling is much less important than this thread gives him credit for. HIs greatest success was in throwing a viable squad together from nothing in the summer of 2017. It's been diminishing returns ever since, especially since his boy Embleton got binned off. He's probably handy to have around, but whether that justifies his salary is another question. But so long as it's Nigel writing the cheques, then that one is on him.

[Mistadobalina]

Our recruitment was poor this summer, we are clearly struggling to compete financially on top of that, but the squad is better than how we are currently doing. Attributing current failures to any single person is stupidly simplistic.

[davidmoooney99]

Bit of a thankless job isn't it?

Granted recruitment, as well documented, this summer was less than ideal but there was at least a strategy and a structure (young talented players with a platform to play good football).

Ling and Richie have a good relationship, so they say, and I believe Richie when he says that (he never said anything about Mcahon or whatever his name was when he came in last year)

He is not the problem, but neither is he the solution - i wouldnt be surprised if he was to step down and take on a different title just to get the crowds on the internet off his back!!

[Long slender neck]

Martin Ling is much less important than this thread gives him credit for. HIs greatest success was in throwing a viable squad together from nothing in the summer of 2017. It's been diminishing returns ever since, especially since his boy Embleton got binned off. He's probably handy to have around, but whether that justifies his salary is another question. But so long as it's Nigel writing the cheques, then that one is on him.

Diminishing returns = Two titles and a cup final? Okay.

[gshaw]

You need to look back and see what the differences between the National League and now. When we were in the National League, you would have called us a big fish and a little pond. Now we have come into a division full of big boys with big money and we’ve tried to do everything on the cheap and it is severely backfired.

That would be a good explanation had we completely failed to compete last season, however RW did get a squad to a decent position.

We got to January where we're told budget was available for players. Initially decent business done moving on a couple of players who weren't part of the plan moving forward then we just needed to get one decent striker signed.

The subsequent interview where RW fired a broadside at the recruitment process was the telling one for me. Never mind the PR cleanup efforts afterward, we saw the frustration at slow and inefficient dealings and from that moment on the season was over and imo we haven't recovered our form since.

Look at the bigger picture of why Jackett ended up being fired (poor transfer window in a very similar vein to this summer) and some of the things this club does that other sides don't.

For example signing players with poor injury records in the hope of finding one who doesn't break down then being surprised when they barely feature. Or signing a glut of youth players in one go with no experience around them, then wondering why the side makes rookie mistakes.

This season we needed a strong spine signed in summer but ended up with two loan GKs, no adequate and match-fit El Miz replacement and 2 players light upfront. That can't all be down to budget.

At some point you need fresh ideas and a new approach as you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who says our business has been good recently.

[Bergen]

Kent and Nigel have been ruthless with some of our managers and they would have sacked ML a long time ago if they didn`t think he was doing a good job. But, of course he will have to be evaluated like everyone else after this season.

[Cheshunto]

I don’t really blame Lingy, his hands are tied by a Lowish budget which is given to him and RW by the owners.
KT and NT have pumped in substantial sums of cash but obviously don’t have bottomless pockets. Presumably RW knew this when he signed his contract and so knows the constraints that he must work with.
We aren’t alone, but I would like to know how wide our scouting network is and ask why we aren’t ‘discovering’ some of the local gems that clubs like Wycombe seem to find , like the lad Kone.

[redintheface]

Kent and Nigel have been ruthless with some of our managers and they would have sacked ML a long time ago if they didn`t think he was doing a good job. But, of course he will have to be evaluated like everyone else after this season.

I’m not advocating immediate action but can the club really afford to wait until “ after this season”? I think there has to come a point - maybe around the turn of the year - when if there has been no improvement we will arrive at a crossroads and something has to be done.

[Hedmans Header]

Constantly hearing we have a lowly budget
but if the budget is spent correctly and we
sign players who have perhaps have played
at least 50% of there previous club’s fixtures
it would be a start ..
But we sit on our hands waste time with “
Due Diligence” and “ traffic light system “
that most decent new recruits would have
signed for a club aswell ..
Cheap young loan signings whilst charging
a premium entrance fee is not a way to
take the club forward ..
The players are out there and I’m sure some
would be happy to join the Os, it’s just we need
to be 1st in the queue instead of playing with
a “ traffic light system” that certainly isn’t
working ..

[DaveDunmore]

Martin Ling is much less important than this thread gives him credit for. HIs greatest success was in throwing a viable squad together from nothing in the summer of 2017. It's been diminishing returns ever since, especially since his boy Embleton got binned off. He's probably handy to have around, but whether that justifies his salary is another question. But so long as it's Nigel writing the cheques, then that one is on him.

Diminishing returns = Two titles and a cup final? Okay.

And a promotion

[gshaw]

Martin Ling is much less important than this thread gives him credit for. HIs greatest success was in throwing a viable squad together from nothing in the summer of 2017. It's been diminishing returns ever since, especially since his boy Embleton got binned off. He's probably handy to have around, but whether that justifies his salary is another question. But so long as it's Nigel writing the cheques, then that one is on him.

Diminishing returns = Two titles and a cup final? Okay.

And a promotion

I'm calling this the DoF Paradox... the league titles are apparently due to him (which is an insult to JE and RW) but the Fletcher / Embleton appointments and poor transfer windows are nothing to do with the role

[Long slender neck]

He held his hands up publicly regarding fletcher.

Nothing to feel bad about with Embleton, it was the right appointment for the situation.

[Bandy Legs]

Diminishing returns = Two titles and a cup final? Okay.

And a promotion

I'm calling this the DoF Paradox... the league titles are apparently due to him (which is an insult to JE and RW) but the Fletcher / Embleton appointments and poor transfer windows are nothing to do with the role

Who was DoF when JE & RW were bought in?
He played a role, has absolutely everything to do with Justin Richie & Ling & NT & KT the players the staff & us the Fans. You might want to forget your role is only to support the club in good times. The rest of us know it's full time 24/7 . Can't deal with bad times then don't go.
You won't be missed.