UpminsterO wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:53 pm
The vote of 4 per cent difference and the geographic distribution shows clearly it is not the will of all the people to leave - the people defined as the majority by the politicians
If the vote had been compulsory as reported in Australia it would of been much better for everyone
What an absolute mess - greed, ego, lack of intelligence, lies, distortion and everything else that is bad in life with humans created this
It wasn't Swinson who delayed Brexit. It was the Tories especially the rabid right wing ERG MPs
Jo Swinson and her party have voted have ignored the result of the referendum and voted AGAINST everything relating to UK leaving the EU and even if the very best deal for leaving could be reached with the EU, she would still vote against it. AS I said before SWINSON is one of many
MPs on both sides of the house of commons who will go to any lengths to use delaying tactics to prevent Brexit.
Lastly once again, you show yourself up by having no other tactics to get your opinion across other than once again having to resort to name calling. No class at all in that, shows a distinct lack of vocabulary and once again shows that you are like a past it boxer, missing his target as he punches away at thin air.
As usual you miss the point.
There is no point to be missed by calling someone a halfwit.
Mikero wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:41 am
Sid it is the job of opposition MPs to oppose the ruling party by voting against them, its how it is supposed to work.
Mikero
The MPS agreed to support the result of the Referendum which was to leave the EU. In reality, many have done the complete opposite and even if a fabulous deal was agreed with the EU, many MPs including many Labour MPs and bar perhaps one or two, the vast majority of the Lib Dems and SNP.......would still vote it down. Reason being, in the referendum they voted to remain in the EU and these MPs have been doing their very best since the result in 2016, to make sure that the result of the referendum is frustrated and then reversed.
Mikero wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:41 am
Sid it is the job of opposition MPs to oppose the ruling party by voting against them, its how it is supposed to work.
Mikero
The MPS agreed to support the result of the Referendum which was to leave the EU. In reality, many have done the complete opposite and even if a fabulous deal was agreed with the EU, many MPs including many Labour MPs and bar perhaps one or two, the vast majority of the Lib Dems and SNP.......would still vote it down. Reason being, in the referendum they voted to remain in the EU and these MPs have been doing their very best since the result in 2016, to make sure that the result of the referendum is frustrated and then reversed.
You're just making this all up aren't you. Where's your proof of any of this?
UpminsterO wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:53 pm
The vote of 4 per cent difference and the geographic distribution shows clearly it is not the will of all the people to leave - the people defined as the majority by the politicians
If the vote had been compulsory as reported in Australia it would of been much better for everyone
What an absolute mess - greed, ego, lack of intelligence, lies, distortion and everything else that is bad in life with humans created this
And Boris and Reece-Mugg - heaven help us all.
Corbyn and Abbot God help us
The effectiveness of "Corbyn and Abbott" is untested whereas we're witnessing the duplicity and self centred dogma of Boris and RM on an almost daily basis. All you're doing is trotting out Daily Mail/Express soundbites. Try engaging your brain for a change.
Last edited by BoniO on Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
StockholmO wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:57 pm
Remainers have been using every possible Parliamentary tactic to delay and obstruct Brexit, Mr Johnson is just playing them at their own game. I sure most people are sick to death of this going on interminably and just want to get on with it so we can get on with our lives.
So MP's who believe in remaining shouldn't oppose Brexit? Really? They've also opposed Brexit within the rules of the parliamentary system we have but now Boris the liar has decided to just close down parliament so that he gets his way. Parliament - who needs it. How can that possibly be right?
This time he's doing it to force through Brexit. Some, like you, see no harm in that, more fool you. What would you say if he uses this method again to push through some awful legislation which you opposed. Would you still think closing parliament was a good thing?
"I'm sure that all the Brexiteers who wanted a return to sovereignty and control will be very happy that we now seem to have a dictator in charge."
Ursula von der Leyen. Who?
"Not sure this move is any less “ democratic” than the attempts by a group of MPs to give themselves new powers to take control of Parliament and stop an exit from the EU! As said above, these people have had three years to act upon the referendum result and failed - time to move on."
Spot on.
"It's the Tory government who've spent 3 years effing about and now you're suggesting that this same government has now become an accomplished negotiator who we should trust to deliver a deal. Why?"
Correct. The Conservatives carry the can for that. May's administration was not just inept it was overtly supporting the EU throughout more than two years of "negotiations". That used to be known as treason. The current administration knows it has one chance of redemption, therefore it has a straightforward course of action: deliver the United Kingdom's departure from the EU. If it fails in this then the Conservative party will be extirpated, justifiably. That seems to have focussed some minds there.
"You can't argue for democracy and then suggest it should be suspended".
One can. This is an opportunity to rebuild, reestablish and reinvigorate democracy. Something that might appeal to both of us.
"It's perfectly democratic for opponents of Brexit to campaign against it and propose what they believe are alternative and better ways to proceed"
Correct. Unfortunately that isn't what happened. The last three years have been spent mired in vexatious whining, hysteria and low grade sophistry (and may the Good Lord protect us from ever having to rehearse some of the repertoire again). You know: Russians; bots; playboys; buses; indicative not binding referenda; inevitable war; terrorism in Ireland; immediate economic meltdown; pointless court cases; parliamentary Spanish practices; surge in unemployment; "It's because of Brexit"/"Brexit hasn't happened yet"; another referendum with a loaded question; there was no vote for "no deal," and so on. Remainers just wanted to subvert the decision made by referendum and simply stop the UK leaving the EU. The rest was desperate but deliberate diversion. It was shameful that May's administration played along with all this. The biggest blow to delivering Brexit was the unwillingness of the governing party (and indeed anyone else) to describe the benefits post-Brexit. This vacuum entrenched the Remain position and has resulted in very many talented, creative, intelligent, articulate people now bizarrely waiting with glee for something to go wrong so that they can say "I told you so".
"To describe the EU as a "hostile foreign entity" is just laughable"
The EU does not negotiate well. Just look at its record securing international trade deals. The withdrawal "negotiations" were nothing less than a punishment exercise encourager les autres. May indulged this with her supine prostration and, even worse, her connivance. The EU was uncontested in setting the timing, sequencing, agenda and even the whole content for the "negotiations." In its obsession with protecting its own interests and its inability or unwillingness to compromise, the EU sought to denigrate and penalise the UK. The draft WA was accurately described by a left-wing Greek politician as the type of agreement signed by two parties, one which had won a war and the other accepting reparations for losing it.
Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:21 pm
Jo Swinson and her party have voted have ignored the result of the referendum and voted AGAINST everything relating to UK leaving the EU and even if the very best deal for leaving could be reached with the EU, she would still vote against it. AS I said before SWINSON is one of many
MPs on both sides of the house of commons who will go to any lengths to use delaying tactics to prevent Brexit.
Lastly once again, you show yourself up by having no other tactics to get your opinion across other than once again having to resort to name calling. No class at all in that, shows a distinct lack of vocabulary and once again shows that you are like a past it boxer, missing his target as he punches away at thin air.
As usual you miss the point.
There is no point to be missed by calling someone a halfwit.
"Johnson is no fool, he knows a couple of small tweaks and he can get this over the line, but only with the stick of no deal on the table. He is playing this very well."
Yes, for the first time there's a semblance of competence. If there's no agreement acceptable to the United Kingdom before November then simple commercial pressure and ensuing political repercussion may result in the EU negotiating more flexibly from November onward. If our government holds its nerve and sees off any further political challenge from Westminster then it is in a very strong position. As it always should have been.
"Why did people vote to 'give power back' to a parliament that they don't want to do its constitutional job?"
Good debating point. To cut to the chase: Most MPs are complacent. It suits many of them to relish the privileges of their position while effectively operating as councillors to a supra-parliament at the EU. And how most of them like that. Examples of the selfishness and dishonesty of many (most?) MPs were revealed during the expenses scandals. Since Bliar, both the Conservative and Labour parties have selected candidates for seats based on how compliantly they would behave "on message". So, not only are they bloated, self-serving, and bent, many are intellectually restricted drones as well. A transfusion is required in order for both houses of the Houses of Parliament to be capable of doing a proper constitutional job in what will be entirely new and more demanding circumstances for most of them. Hopefully this is stage one in that process.
"Johnson could come back with the best deal in history and parliament would still not vote for it. There is a majority in parliament to cancel brexit if they could and against the express wishes of the British people."
Exactly. From their perspective it's all nonsense about getting a deal. They just want to destroy the whole thing.
"What happens after no deal and ensuing chaos? We go right back to the EU immediately for a deal. No deal is a delusion, pure and simple."
Regardless of scale, anything that goes wrong from 1 November onward will be exaggerated. Of that there is no doubt. If it is truly cataclysmic then some of us will never, ever accept EU servitude under any circumstances and whatever the cost. Others might consider themselves more pragmatic and keep their options open. Of course, re-admittance would come at a cost. That cost would be the price of leaving. Rather than continuing to flog a dead horse, perhaps that ought really help to persuade some Remain supporters to be pragmatic too and acknowledge the inevitability of the change (yes, it's actually going to happen). Perhaps they could even help to make it work for everyone's benefit? This would require opening minds and tempering the wildest of criticism. Anyway, it's worth mentioning that in its current form the EU's utterly stuffed, a subject which Remainers have sensibly avoided mentioning.
"Cummings has played a blinder here. Totally outflanked Magic Grandpa"
Correct. Despite a privileged bourgeois upbringing, an E grade at A level in Woodwork and over fifty years perfecting his sixth form common room agit-prop, Corbyn's just not very good.
"MPs complaining that it an it's undemocratic but they have ignored the will of the majority for over three years, for most MPs it's not about stopping a no deal brexit but stopping brexit at all costs."
and
"Well if the majority remain MPs continue to vote undermine each PMs attempt to negotiate a half decent deal then I say well done to Boris for taking the bull by the horns.....he needs the eu to at least think he is serious about no deal even if he’s not....remain MPs cannot moan to anybody about being undemocratic....they started it"
Both dead on.
"It will be interesting to see the UK trying to get a good deal with countries like China without the power of the economic bloc that is the EU."
Does the EU have a free trade deal with China? Does Switzerland have one?
"What an absolute mess - greed, ego, lack of intelligence, lies, distortion and everything else that is bad in life with humans created this"
A genuinely admirable sentiment. From the other side of the fence this applies to the trajectory of the EU. Ultimately in order to correct this it is easier to do so when there is more direct and individual control over those we elect to administer power. This lessens as the scale extends. A voter has more control over a councillor than an MP, an MP more than a MEP - and no control whatsoever over an unelected EU commissioner or president.
"You can't argue for democracy and then suggest it should be suspended".
One can. This is an opportunity to rebuild, reestablish and reinvigorate democracy. Something that might appeal to both of us.
Nice try Mr J Goebbels of 71 High St, Nuremburg, Germany.
The suspension of democracy in this case is NOT for the reasons you state. It is to curtail the proper scrutiny and debate of Brexit by the elected representatives of the people of the UK. They represent the country not just the minority position of the Brexiteers. In fact recent polls demonstrate there is no longer a majority who would vote for Brexit in a 2nd referendum.
Suspending parliamentary democracy is a dangerous road to go down just because the elected representatives won't bend to your will. What next? Suspension of parliament to enable the sale of the NHS to US corporations?
Saying suspend parliament to strengthen it is pure 1984 speak.
Apparently this is what Cummings has in mind next. You can say it's a remain elite lizard person etc providing the source, but bear in mind government was strongly denying they were planning to prorogue parliament on the weekend and yet here we are.
Scary stuff. Teeing up the supposed express will of the people against parliament to justify strengthening the executive is a bleak, bleak precedent. To think this an exception is naive to the extreme.
Beradogs wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:20 am
The Labour Party were the last to prorogue Parliament. Hysterical remainiacs have only themselves to blame.
Nothing hysterical about wanting Parliament to have a say in what is likely to be an immensely damaging decision for the Country. Nobody has voted for a no deal Brexit. If you're happy for one man to suddenly decide he has total power over all our destinies then you really are wearing blinkers. I would have thought that even Brexiteers would recognise that this is one huge step too far.
For three and a half years the remoaners have talked and done every political trick to thwart democracy, your comments show you know sod all about democracy
Beradogs wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:20 am
The Labour Party were the last to prorogue Parliament. Hysterical remainiacs have only themselves to blame.
Nothing hysterical about wanting Parliament to have a say in what is likely to be an immensely damaging decision for the Country. Nobody has voted for a no deal Brexit. If you're happy for one man to suddenly decide he has total power over all our destinies then you really are wearing blinkers. I would have thought that even Brexiteers would recognise that this is one huge step too far.
For three and a half years the remoaners have talked and done every political trick to thwart democracy, your comments show you know sod all about democracy
Remainers have used every legal option to thwart what they believe would be a highly damaging Brexit. How that can be seen as anti-democratic beggars belief. Only the dumbest of the dumb would describe it as so. It's actually almost 3 and a half years that the Tories, through their own ineptitude, have screwed the whole Brexit process to the point where Boris the liar is now gleefully looking to jump off the cliff without a parachute - dragging us all after him. Oh, and he's shutting down Parliament to achieve this. Why would anyone, remainer or otherwise think a) that's acceptable and b) it's not a frightening precedent for Boris the liar to push just about anything he wants through Parliament.
Bonio wrote"
Remainers have used every legal option to thwart what they believe would be a highly damaging Brexit. How that can be seen as anti-democratic beggars belief"
Simply because they are trying to reverse a democratic peoples vote taken three years ago.
While I agree the Tories in fighting has been a major factor as to why we are where we are, lets not forget that all MP's were given plenty of opportunity to agree a negotiated exit and many Labour, Liberal, SNP as well as Tories MPs rejected the chance. be as anti Brexit as you like but you should recognise the result of the vote three years ago because it is democracy at work .
My feeling is that given Boris is taking a hard line to leave on October 31st -The EU will make some concession to avoid a hard Brexit (that no one really wants) if they do that and it goes back to parliament to ratify the deal and MP's vote against it the whole lot of them should be strung up from Westminster Bridge over winter.
Top of the West. wrote: ↑Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:20 am
Bonio wrote"
Remainers have used every legal option to thwart what they believe would be a highly damaging Brexit. How that can be seen as anti-democratic beggars belief"
Simply because they are trying to reverse a democratic peoples vote taken three years ago.
While I agree the Tories in fighting has been a major factor as to why we are where we are, lets not forget that all MP's were given plenty of opportunity to agree a negotiated exit and many Labour, Liberal, SNP as well as Tories MPs rejected the chance. be as anti Brexit as you like but you should recognise the result of the vote three years ago because it is democracy at work .
My feeling is that given Boris is taking a hard line to leave on October 31st -The EU will make some concession to avoid a hard Brexit (that no one really wants) if they do that and it goes back to parliament to ratify the deal and MP's vote against it the whole lot of them should be strung up from Westminster Bridge over winter.
Laws are enacted by parliament and therefore petitioning the judiciary for interpretation of them is also part of the democratic process which is contrary to your erroneous position that it is somehow undemocratic to do so.
Referenda are not a true expression of democracy and can only be understood within the context of representative democracy. Your position is that you want to ignore representative democracy because it won't deliver what you want. That is undemocratic.
DuvB wrote: ↑Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:20 am
Why cant remainers, whether ordinary voters or MPs, accept the concept of democracy? Is it because they cant accept that they lost?
Is closing parliament a part of this cherished democracy you worship?
Why are you not posting threads objecting to that?
Top of the West. wrote: ↑Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:20 am
Bonio wrote"
Remainers have used every legal option to thwart what they believe would be a highly damaging Brexit. How that can be seen as anti-democratic beggars belief"
Simply because they are trying to reverse a democratic peoples vote taken three years ago.
While I agree the Tories in fighting has been a major factor as to why we are where we are, lets not forget that all MP's were given plenty of opportunity to agree a negotiated exit and many Labour, Liberal, SNP as well as Tories MPs rejected the chance. be as anti Brexit as you like but you should recognise the result of the vote three years ago because it is democracy at work .
My feeling is that given Boris is taking a hard line to leave on October 31st -The EU will make some concession to avoid a hard Brexit (that no one really wants) if they do that and it goes back to parliament to ratify the deal and MP's vote against it the whole lot of them should be strung up from Westminster Bridge over winter.
Laws are enacted by parliament and therefore petitioning the judiciary for interpretation of them is also part of the democratic process which is contrary to your erroneous position that it is somehow undemocratic to do so.
Referenda are not a true expression of democracy and can only be understood within the context of representative democracy. Your position is that you want to ignore representative democracy because it won't deliver what you want. That is undemocratic.
I abide by the democratic vote of the people of the UK three years ago, I accept the result and that we will leave the EU in the same way that I would have accepted a remain vote through the same democratic voting process.
It is the duty of elected MP's to carry through the will of the people the fact they cant do this without the drastic measure being taken by Boris reflects badly on Parliament and the selfish agendas and politicing that have been prevalent through the whole process so far.
Top of the West. wrote: ↑Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:20 am
Bonio wrote"
Remainers have used every legal option to thwart what they believe would be a highly damaging Brexit. How that can be seen as anti-democratic beggars belief"
Simply because they are trying to reverse a democratic peoples vote taken three years ago.
While I agree the Tories in fighting has been a major factor as to why we are where we are, lets not forget that all MP's were given plenty of opportunity to agree a negotiated exit and many Labour, Liberal, SNP as well as Tories MPs rejected the chance. be as anti Brexit as you like but you should recognise the result of the vote three years ago because it is democracy at work .
My feeling is that given Boris is taking a hard line to leave on October 31st -The EU will make some concession to avoid a hard Brexit (that no one really wants) if they do that and it goes back to parliament to ratify the deal and MP's vote against it the whole lot of them should be strung up from Westminster Bridge over winter.
Laws are enacted by parliament and therefore petitioning the judiciary for interpretation of them is also part of the democratic process which is contrary to your erroneous position that it is somehow undemocratic to do so.
Referenda are not a true expression of democracy and can only be understood within the context of representative democracy. Your position is that you want to ignore representative democracy because it won't deliver what you want. That is undemocratic.
I abide by the democratic vote of the people of the UK three years ago, I accept the result and that we will leave the EU in the same way that I would have accepted a remain vote through the same democratic voting process.
It is the duty of elected MP's to carry through the will of the people the fact they cant do this without the drastic measure being taken by Boris reflects badly on Parliament and the selfish agendas and politicing that have been prevalent through the whole process so far.
It's hardly the will of the people when its finely balanced at 52/48 and its not the will of the Scottish or NI people who voted to remain. The referendum is not constitutional.
Its false to state that you would have accepted the outcome of the vote had it gone the other way because the Brexiteers are on record as saying they would fight on to achieve their aims.
In a representative democracy it is NOT the duty of parliament to carry out the "will of the people" as represented by a referendum. One, because that is not how representative democracy works. Two, it is not constitutional. Three, it is not actually the will of the people given that two of the countries in the UK voted to remain and 30% did not vote at all.
To describe the MPs as having "selfish agendas" is to fundementally disrespect democracy and misunderstand politics and how it works. They may not agree with you and they might represent the position of people you disagree with but they aren't doing it for selfish reasons they are representing a section of society. Calling them selfish is just childish.
Mikero wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:41 am
Sid it is the job of opposition MPs to oppose the ruling party by voting against them, its how it is supposed to work.
Mikero
No it is not! To oppose the Government just because you are in opposition is bloody stupid. So the Government comes up with an idea that aligns with the oppositions views, you think they should oppose it just because they are in opposition. What absolute bolox.
DuvB wrote: ↑Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:20 am
Why cant remainers, whether ordinary voters or MPs, accept the concept of democracy? Is it because they cant accept that they lost?
Do people in the real world really refer to themselves as Remainers or Leavers, asking for a normal person?
The effectiveness of "Corbyn and Abbott" is untested whereas we're witnessing the duplicity and self centred dogma of Boris and RM on an almost daily basis. All you're doing is trotting out Daily Mail/Express soundbites. Try engaging your brain for a change.
The ineffectiveness of Corbyn and Abbott has been demonstrated very clearly. In the case of Abbott, go look on Youtube. She is a joke, but an unfunny one because she could be Home Secretary one day. Not from the Daily Mail. straight from her own mouth.
The effectiveness of "Corbyn and Abbott" is untested whereas we're witnessing the duplicity and self centred dogma of Boris and RM on an almost daily basis. All you're doing is trotting out Daily Mail/Express soundbites. Try engaging your brain for a change.
The ineffectiveness of Corbyn and Abbott has been demonstrated very clearly. In the case of Abbott, go look on Youtube. She is a joke, but an unfunny one because she could be Home Secretary one day. Not from the Daily Mail. straight from her own mouth.
Stop wasting internet space with this adolescent my dads bigger than your dad whataboutery tripe.
Laws are enacted by parliament and therefore petitioning the judiciary for interpretation of them is also part of the democratic process which is contrary to your erroneous position that it is somehow undemocratic to do so.
Referenda are not a true expression of democracy and can only be understood within the context of representative democracy. Your position is that you want to ignore representative democracy because it won't deliver what you want. That is undemocratic.
I abide by the democratic vote of the people of the UK three years ago, I accept the result and that we will leave the EU in the same way that I would have accepted a remain vote through the same democratic voting process.
It is the duty of elected MP's to carry through the will of the people the fact they cant do this without the drastic measure being taken by Boris reflects badly on Parliament and the selfish agendas and politicing that have been prevalent through the whole process so far.
It's hardly the will of the people when its finely balanced at 52/48 and its not the will of the Scottish or NI people who voted to remain. The referendum is not constitutional.
Its false to state that you would have accepted the outcome of the vote had it gone the other way because the Brexiteers are on record as saying they would fight on to achieve their aims.
In a representative democracy it is NOT the duty of parliament to carry out the "will of the people" as represented by a referendum. One, because that is not how representative democracy works. Two, it is not constitutional. Three, it is not actually the will of the people given that two of the countries in the UK voted to remain and 30% did not vote at all.
To describe the MPs as having "selfish agendas" is to fundementally disrespect democracy and misunderstand politics and how it works. They may not agree with you and they might represent the position of people you disagree with but they aren't doing it for selfish reasons they are representing a section of society. Calling them selfish is just childish.
Max don't tell me that I wouldn't have accepted a remain vote because I would have. There would not have been anywhere near this fracas If remain had of won. You can't blame leavers if a large number of people chose not to vote.the result would probably have been different if a number of remainers had bothered to vote but that was their democratic choice not to vote and so be it.
It is absolutely the duty of parliament to carry out the will of the people, If you don't think that MPs have been following their own agendas during Brexit vote then you haven't been paying attention. As for Scotland are you not still part of the UK? didn't you have a vote to decide that or perhaps that result was un democratic too. Introducing the Scotland didn't want it argument is doing just what a lot of MPs are doing introducing your own agenda into a UK wide decision isn't it?
We had a simple black or white in/out vote and those who bothered to vote chose out. That's democracy block it all you like but that was the decision of the people.
I would prefer a slight delay to give the chance of a negotiated exit by Johnson team but the chance of getting anything through parliament is as we have seen remote.
