The point is, it was obvious that he couldn't rise to the occasion in any game, he never did and a coach with anything about him would have recognised that early on and made the right decision for the team and not give a f*ck what people thought.
Missed my point completely there.
What was your point then? Do you think the rest of the team thought that version of Kane was one of our best players? Surely the message would be, it doesn't matter who you are, if you're not performing, you don't get in the team.
There's an element of that, perhaps yes. But football team dynamics works on a different level to just dropping players and not giving a sh*t what anyone thinks. Team spirit is finely balanced. If i was playing in that team and for the final, the manager dropped england's top all time goalscorer, the captain, the world cup golden boot winner (and current euros golden boot winner fyi) and a player who scored 40 goals season just gone, i'd think he'd lost his mind and was giving us an uphill battle despite their form.
Not the same, obviously, but it's like the Argies dropping Messi because he had 3 bad games. The rest of the team would be like wtf.
What was your point then? Do you think the rest of the team thought that version of Kane was one of our best players? Surely the message would be, it doesn't matter who you are, if you're not performing, you don't get in the team.
There's an element of that, perhaps yes. But football team dynamics works on a different level to just dropping players and not giving a sh*t what anyone thinks. Team spirit is finely balanced. If i was playing in that team and for the final, the manager dropped england's top all time goalscorer, the captain, the world cup golden boot winner (and current euros golden boot winner fyi) and a player who scored 40 goals season just gone, i'd think he'd lost his mind and was giving us an uphill battle despite their form.
Not the same, obviously, but it's like the Argies dropping Messi because he had 3 bad games. The rest of the team would be like wtf.
So what you are saying, it was like when we dropped The Piglet against Carlisle away last season?
Yeah Kane wasn't himself, he wasn't even jumping for balls so i get the argument of dropping him but there was more at play/risk by dropping him than having a different player up front.
PKM wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 12:05 am
I think Peter Kitchens fb post sums it up very well:
It’s not coming home because we weren’t brave enough. We have the players to have won this but a Manager whose mindset is cautious, safe & negative & shows in his team selection. His system does not get the best out of his players & Kane needed more offensive support . We’re sitting back far too deep with Rice playing in amongst the back players most of the time. We surrendered the initiative & allowed Spain to boss the game & then only play when we’re chasing the game. Palmer should have started & would have caused Spain problems from the start, caused them problems & helped support Kane. His substitutions are also too late with Toney coming on with 2 mins left.
Controversial take Peter is clearly stuck in the 1970s.
On the hand ful of occasions we went for it in both the semi and final, we were cut apart. Spain are a class above us. Southgate’s boring tactics kept us in the game.
PKM wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 12:05 am
I think Peter Kitchens fb post sums it up very well:
It’s not coming home because we weren’t brave enough. We have the players to have won this but a Manager whose mindset is cautious, safe & negative & shows in his team selection. His system does not get the best out of his players & Kane needed more offensive support . We’re sitting back far too deep with Rice playing in amongst the back players most of the time. We surrendered the initiative & allowed Spain to boss the game & then only play when we’re chasing the game. Palmer should have started & would have caused Spain problems from the start, caused them problems & helped support Kane. His substitutions are also too late with Toney coming on with 2 mins left.
Controversial take Peter is clearly stuck in the 1970s.
On the hand ful of occasions we went for it in both the semi and final, we were cut apart. Spain are a class above us. Southgate’s boring tactics kept us in the game.
Not controversial at all - PK comment is bang on.
The eye roll meant I was being sarcastic at Peter regurgitating the same nonsense as all the media pundits. He's bang wrong.
You see, if we had dropped the cautious approach and gone for it, Spain would have ripped us apart. As happened on the handful of occassions we did go for it during the match. (Dunnem, this might be the one that flips it).
What was your point then? Do you think the rest of the team thought that version of Kane was one of our best players? Surely the message would be, it doesn't matter who you are, if you're not performing, you don't get in the team.
There's an element of that, perhaps yes. But football team dynamics works on a different level to just dropping players and not giving a sh*t what anyone thinks. Team spirit is finely balanced. If i was playing in that team and for the final, the manager dropped england's top all time goalscorer, the captain, the world cup golden boot winner (and current euros golden boot winner fyi) and a player who scored 40 goals season just gone, i'd think he'd lost his mind and was giving us an uphill battle despite their form.
Not the same, obviously, but it's like the Argies dropping Messi because he had 3 bad games. The rest of the team would be like wtf.
How about those subs sitting on the bench thinking how come i'm sat here whilst he does sweet fa.
Can't tell me there wouldn't be a bit of resentment and thinking why doesn't the manager see it.
“Kane has been” precisely. You have hit the nail on the head,his performances throughout this comp have been woeful to say the least. A good coach would have realised that after the knockout stage or before. Kane has been an excellent player though out his career now his time is at an end Just has Lineker, Jeff Hurst,and Rooneys has.
The geezer scored about 40 goals this season. If we lose last night with Watkins starting (which would have still probably happened) we all know what the media and same posters would be saying about dropping Kane for a final
It doen't matter if Kane had scored a 100 goals this season, he was injured at the end of it and was unable to perform and any coach who cares what the media says clearly lacks confidence in their own judgement.
Sir Alf Ransey was a strong manager, who was not swayed by personalities. He did not play big name players if they were not up to scratch on the pitch.
Southgate comes across as a weak manager easilly manipulated by the big name players. .
Controversial take Peter is clearly stuck in the 1970s.
On the hand ful of occasions we went for it in both the semi and final, we were cut apart. Spain are a class above us. Southgate’s boring tactics kept us in the game.
Not controversial at all - PK comment is bang on.
The eye roll meant I was being sarcastic at Peter regurgitating the same nonsense as all the media pundits. He's bang wrong.
You see, if we had dropped the cautious approach and gone for it, Spain would have ripped us apart. As happened on the handful of occassions we did go for it during the match. (Dunnem, this might be the one that flips it).
Nope. I think Peter is correct. We needed to show more aggression and go for it, I'd only change that I wouldn't have played Kane at all. He's still a great player but he was either unfit or out of sorts for this competition.
What was your point then? Do you think the rest of the team thought that version of Kane was one of our best players? Surely the message would be, it doesn't matter who you are, if you're not performing, you don't get in the team.
There's an element of that, perhaps yes. But football team dynamics works on a different level to just dropping players and not giving a sh*t what anyone thinks. Team spirit is finely balanced. If i was playing in that team and for the final, the manager dropped england's top all time goalscorer, the captain, the world cup golden boot winner (and current euros golden boot winner fyi) and a player who scored 40 goals season just gone, i'd think he'd lost his mind and was giving us an uphill battle despite their form.
Not the same, obviously, but it's like the Argies dropping Messi because he had 3 bad games. The rest of the team would be like wtf.
How about those subs sitting on the bench thinking how come i'm sat here whilst he does sweet fa.
Can't tell me there wouldn't be a bit of resentment and thinking why doesn't the manager see it.
Toney was twice brought on in the dying minutes whilst Kane was wondering around for most of the games like he had lead in his boots, not the player of say 3 or 4 years ago. Everyone could see it apart from Southgate. Wonder how Toney felt sitting all that time being ignored on the subs bench ?
What was your point then? Do you think the rest of the team thought that version of Kane was one of our best players? Surely the message would be, it doesn't matter who you are, if you're not performing, you don't get in the team.
There's an element of that, perhaps yes. But football team dynamics works on a different level to just dropping players and not giving a sh*t what anyone thinks. Team spirit is finely balanced. If i was playing in that team and for the final, the manager dropped england's top all time goalscorer, the captain, the world cup golden boot winner (and current euros golden boot winner fyi) and a player who scored 40 goals season just gone, i'd think he'd lost his mind and was giving us an uphill battle despite their form.
Not the same, obviously, but it's like the Argies dropping Messi because he had 3 bad games. The rest of the team would be like wtf.
How about those subs sitting on the bench thinking how come i'm sat here whilst he does sweet fa.
Can't tell me there wouldn't be a bit of resentment and thinking why doesn't the manager see it.
What's the answer then? Dont have subs? Regardless of who's playing you are going to have players thinking they should start. That's what Gareth has been so good at, bringing the whole squad together.
There's an element of that, perhaps yes. But football team dynamics works on a different level to just dropping players and not giving a sh*t what anyone thinks. Team spirit is finely balanced. If i was playing in that team and for the final, the manager dropped england's top all time goalscorer, the captain, the world cup golden boot winner (and current euros golden boot winner fyi) and a player who scored 40 goals season just gone, i'd think he'd lost his mind and was giving us an uphill battle despite their form.
Not the same, obviously, but it's like the Argies dropping Messi because he had 3 bad games. The rest of the team would be like wtf.
How about those subs sitting on the bench thinking how come i'm sat here whilst he does sweet fa.
Can't tell me there wouldn't be a bit of resentment and thinking why doesn't the manager see it.
What's the answer then? Dont have subs? Regardless of who's playing you are going to have players thinking they should start. That's what Gareth has been so good at, bringing the whole squad together.
He has been even better at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
I don't think this particular tournament has seen such a united squad, but daresay you will disagree.
Its time your beloved Gareth went, run out of the few ideas he had and doesn't know what to do next.
Will also be interesting to see how many premier clubs are interested in him as their manager?
There's an element of that, perhaps yes. But football team dynamics works on a different level to just dropping players and not giving a sh*t what anyone thinks. Team spirit is finely balanced. If i was playing in that team and for the final, the manager dropped england's top all time goalscorer, the captain, the world cup golden boot winner (and current euros golden boot winner fyi) and a player who scored 40 goals season just gone, i'd think he'd lost his mind and was giving us an uphill battle despite their form.
Not the same, obviously, but it's like the Argies dropping Messi because he had 3 bad games. The rest of the team would be like wtf.
How about those subs sitting on the bench thinking how come i'm sat here whilst he does sweet fa.
Can't tell me there wouldn't be a bit of resentment and thinking why doesn't the manager see it.
What's the answer then? Dont have subs? Regardless of who's playing you are going to have players thinking they should start. That's what Gareth has been so good at, bringing the whole squad together.
The answer is get rid of Southgate, no room for losers.Then England must get a new positive Manager who will play attractive, attacking football instead of boring, boring, boring and negative football .
Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 3:58 pm
The Guardian has rated the performance of all 21 England squad members who made an appearance in the tournament:
Unfortunately Southgates boring tactics whilst keeping us in the game will always leave him a loser in Major competitions and with the majority of fans that want a winner that doesn’t bore you to infinity.
If this team had tried to play open, expansive football, we'd have gone out in the group stages.
We have hammered better teams at previous tournaments under Southgate. This narrative is ridiculous. It's definitely the worst we've performed under him (purely based on quality of our play) and by his own admission, we hadn't figured out how to set up our midfield going into the tournament, which is a big issue if trying to win something.
Credit where credit is due, he's got a lot of the other stuff right and wasn't afraid to switch things up when they weren't working. But we spent half the tournament working out how we want our midfield to play, which isn't going to lend itself to a cohesive team.
It is of no consequence wether he has got a lot of other stuff right and wasn’t afraid to switch things up when they weren’t working.As far as Managing England to victory in any Major tournament he is a loser , with his boring and negative tactics he will never win a major tournament for England. He was past his sell by date ages ago.
Southgate definitely has that same aura as Slade, a man manager who can bring a squad together but doesn't have the nous and edge to get over the line when it matters.
I don't agree with the sentiment that Spain picked us off when we "went for it". Look at how deep Rice is sitting for that second goal, that's not the midfield bombing on.
Also don't know whether Walker was completely shot at the end but don't get why he didn't slide Cucurella to block the cross as he seemed to have got there but slowed up at the last.
gshaw wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 5:58 pm
Southgate definitely has that same aura as Slade, a man manager who can bring a squad together but doesn't have the nous and edge to get over the line when it matters.
I don't agree with the sentiment that Spain picked us off when we "went for it". Look at how deep Rice is sitting for that second goal, that's not the midfield bombing on.
Also don't know whether Walker was completely shot at the end but don't get why he didn't slide Cucurella to block the cross as he seemed to have got there but slowed up at the last.
As their striker lays it off it’s basically a 4 v 4
Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 3:58 pm
The Guardian has rated the performance of all 21 England squad members who made an appearance in the tournament:
Peter is clearly stuck in the 1970s.
