The trans debate

[CEB]

Well thats all i found on a search, must have been testimony from Adams.

The case is being heard as we speak. The tweet thread I posted is a live transcript of what happened yesterday, with some fascinating/shocking detail.

Once the case is over and a judgment handed down, there’ll be more coverage.

[Dunners]

If some people have to confront the possibility that they were captured and wrong on this, then that means they need to consider the possibility that they are wrong on some other stuff too. People will avoid having to confront that possibility for as long as possible.

[CEB]

Reality is parody Daily Mail stories from 2008 now

That’s the problem really - and I think it’s palpable, seeing how this thread has developed.
The stuff that’s going on with trans rights has been iffy as f*** for years now, but it’s impossible to state whats they’re doing without it sounding like a Richard Littlejohn column making up ludicrous extrapolations.

I would genuinely love for one of the people I engaged with early, who were at the time confident of their position, to jump back in and give us an update. I genuinely don’t know how anyone could even begin to defend this

You underestimate their need to remain part of the tribe by keeping on message

There are a few people who have been very fair and conceded when they’ve recognised the legitimacy of some of what I’ve said.

Id actually be interested for the others to come on here and be on message. I wonder if MM’s assertion about the person he worked with that “everything about her presents as female” (which he later clarified amounted to “she says she’s a girl”) also applies to be-penised management of rape crisis centres who think that raped women need to reframe their transphobia and recognise the bigotry in their desire for same sex care.

[CEB]

This ideology forces people to make idiots of themselves

[CEB]

For context

[Hoover Attack]

It's staggering that people in such positions are so scared they come out with this nonsense.

[Currywurst and Chips]

Almost like they’re indoctrinated in a cult

[Daily Express bot]

The people who benefit from all told this claptrap of course are the nonces, pervs, rapists and sexual deviant men who put in a cheap syrup a bit of rouge , lipstick and a charity shop bought frock and declare they are a woman and get a multi- access passport to the equivalent of a free sweet shop. Meanwhile people like Starmer cannot define what a woman is and he was a top lawyer!

[CEB]

It’s not staggering though, it’s depressingly predictable - even if you look back at the early posts on this thread, and the initial exchanges I had; people who should know better could not be bothered to work out what they thought about this issue. That pattern of behaviour occurred nationwide on this issue,and that act of withdrawing left a hell of a lot of space for activists to press ahead and intimidate those who disagreed.

I mean, I’d be the first to admit that I’m a contrarian argumentative c*** a lot of the time, but in order to successfully work out what I think of this - from a starting point of being a woolly lefty who recognised that other woolly lefties were saying mad s***, pretty much required me to be an argumentative c*** who isn’t too fussed about being liked.

[CEB]

Its a complex issue which I have differing opinions on, depending on the element.

If it was my child I would do my absolutely very best to support them and help them into being themselves. But I'd also try to do the very hard job of convincing them to wait. Your body and your mind changes so much before and after puberty. The things I wanted at 10 were very different at 16, as were the things i wanted at 23 are different today, ten years later. It's hard to understand that when you are young though and ultimately it's very difficult for anyone if they cant be themselves, no matter what age. I think you need to balance listening, understanding and your responsibility as a guardian.

That's the whole point of puberty blockers, which despite all the worried wailing, is the only treatment available to under 16's. They aren't completely without risk but it is a reversible treatment. The majority of children accessing the gender identity service don't receive any hormone treatment at all and the focus is on therapy and social transitioning if that's what they want.

From my already admitted limited experience, this thing about kids saying they were born in the wrong body is a misconception of how people present. Just going from the one person I know, everything about her behaviour presents as female and she's been like that all her life. It's not a passing fad, it's who she is.

Genuinely interested in whether Mick McQuaid stands by this comment or not?

[CEB]

Do you believe it's possible to be born in the wrong body?

For me, if you think about it scientifically there's bound to be a genetic mutation that creates a misfiring of chemical production that occurs for most people of that gender, so the answer has to be yes, you can be born with one genders physical attributes and another's chemical attributes. When you should do something about it and how you can differentiate it from other issues is the real question.

What's your thoughts?

Re-reading the earlier takes.
There is some real nonsense here. I don’t mean to pick on Adz in particular, but this is a brilliant example of someone just saying *stuff* that sounds sciencey, and handwaves away any concerns about the assertion “some men are actually women” by just kind of assuming there’s something out there that validates it.

It’s utter, utter nonsense

[CEB]

I’m really not certain what I think about this hot potato topic. I guess I’m still open to being put right on a few points I was unsure of here.

And hi CEB. Nice to have you around again. We’ve really suffered from a lack of Katie Perry drawings of late…

yeah, I’ve spotted the KP thread

The reason the issue is so complex is because, as far as I can see, people with an understandable predisposition towards progressive causes have happily gone along with what seems an obvious next step in society becoming more enlightened - “it’s just like gay rights” - and have kind of assumed that there’s some substantial analysis somewhere, a rationale underpinning trans activism that justifies it. And by the time you’ve gone along with it to some extent, you’re a bit railroaded into not questioning anything else lest you be considered bigoted. I think it’s easy for those who aren’t certain what to think to kind of delegate the thinking to others and see what people we’re aligned with think. That’s what I did to start with, but the absurdities were too much; i like a good argument, but I couldn’t argue in favour of trans rights activism because as I looked for the substance, there was none at all.

Me two years ago, my second post on the subject.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

Well this is painful

[CEB]

This very much seems to be a battle between women and trans people.

I just dont believe its possible to change sex, whilst I always will respect everyone, it feels like I'm being told that I must go along with something that defies science.

Remember - trans activism doesn’t actually argue that people can change sex. What it actually argues is that we all have an innate gender identity that may be either that of a “woman”, “man”, “non binary”, or any number of other genders; that those innate gender identities do not have any criteria attached to them that can make it measurable whether or not someone has one of them, and that it’s that gender identity that determines whether society/law should see you as male or female, with sex being irrelevant to it.
Trans activism isn’t asking you to believe that someone can change sex: trans activism demands that you understand that a male with a penis is every bit as much a woman as anyone else, if that male declares that he is a woman.

And why is that so difficult to accept?

The answer is because accepting it ended up with a court case for constructive dismissal when a woman was forced out of working at a rape crisis centre run by a fully intact male, who has suggested that rape victims who require support from female people are bigots.

(one detail that has been unnoticed - the rape crisis centre did not even see fit to direct the women it turned away to Beira’s Place, the rape crisis centre fully funded and opened by JK Rowling to provide the only rape crisis centre in Edinburgh that is female only, making it the only place that would fit the needs of the rape victims turned away from the existing service)

[CEB]

Well this is painful

Your early takes on this weren’t much better. You were all (and I don’t blame you because a LOT of people were) talking ill informed nonsense based only on a vague sense of what was considered “good” - you assumed good intentions of organisations and movements that didn’t warrant it, and assumed negative intentions of those with reservations.
LSN, Dunners, and Conkles are probably the only ones who should be able to read the early pages of that thread without being embarrassed.

I’d genuinely be interested in anyone who revisited their opinions and either revised them or stood by them

[Currywurst and Chips]

It’s not staggering though, it’s depressingly predictable - even if you look back at the early posts on this thread, and the initial exchanges I had; people who should know better could not be bothered to work out what they thought about this issue. That pattern of behaviour occurred nationwide on this issue,and that act of withdrawing left a hell of a lot of space for activists to press ahead and intimidate those who disagreed.

I mean, I’d be the first to admit that I’m a contrarian argumentative c*** a lot of the time, but in order to successfully work out what I think of this - from a starting point of being a woolly lefty who recognised that other woolly lefties were saying mad s***, pretty much required me to be an argumentative c*** who isn’t too fussed about being liked.

Whether it be Trans/Houthis/Iran/COVID/taxes or whatever, it’s too easy now to outsource your opinion to Twitter or what does my side say about this. Then you’ve got your pre-written talking points. I’m aware this isn’t a new thesis btw

But it leads to totally unqualified people on both sides being asked their opinions on things (AI is the worst) when they haven’t got a clue but they’re the talking head/gobshite for that side

[CEB]

Yeah - at one point with Covid, saying you thought it came from a lab leak was tantamount to saying “I am a very big fan of Donald Trump and love him” because a live issue about a matter of fact quickly became polarised along ideological lines.


Do you know what, I’ll be embarrassed as hell to see it, but I would love it if someone knows where the thread on the old version of the board is about Frank Maloney, because I clearly remember posting on that thread, having a go at the more conservative boarders who I saw at the time as being less enlightened.

[CEB]

I’ll stop quoting older stuff for now, but anyone who can be bothered - especially if you disagree with me - I would love for some of the people who raised an eyebrow at my “obsession” with this issue to read my takes on it in the context of how the debate has moved on since.

[CEB]

A person is welcome to have a metaphysical belief, absolutely; but that should not, as far as I can see, impact the right of female people to be able to organise politically and socially on the basis of sex, and their right to maintain that male people’s beliefs about themselves don’t compel female people to believe them.

Only the extreme trans activists are saying this and they are few in number. Not all trans people are saying this yet your battle seems to be with every one of them. Who knows the extremists might even be getting paid to fuel the divisive culture war.

You argue using regressive arguments based on a natural order against progressive values and provide a pseudo intellectual gloss to culture war ideas supported by the likes of Galloway etc. paid for Russian patsies.

You ignore the violence which arises because arguments like yours promote an atmosphere of hate which individuals act on but you don't seem bothered by that.

That was the helicopter view I first asked about but you chose to dive in and smother it in detail, assumptions and assertions.

You need to seriously think about what cause you serve.

Actually, no, I’m gonna carry on. Exchanges like this felt like being gaslit. I knew at the time there was a male person running a rape crisis centre, and I knew the implications of that.
I’m actually quite surprised at how measured my tone was. I thought I’d have been being a lot more aggressive than this.

[Currywurst and Chips]

Yeah - at one point with Covid, saying you thought it came from a lab leak was tantamount to saying “I am a very big fan of Donald Trump and love him” because a live issue about a matter of fact quickly became polarised along ideological lines.


Do you know what, I’ll be embarrassed as hell to see it, but I would love it if someone knows where the thread on the old version of the board is about Frank Maloney, because I clearly remember posting on that thread, having a go at the more conservative boarders who I saw at the time as being less enlightened.

Unlike the old official board it’s still all there thankfully: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/leytono ... t1619.html

Page one:

[Dunners]

Sometimes, if I'm bored, scanning through a thread like this throws up some cracking stuff. I'd completely forgotten about Rainbow Dildo Butt Monkey.

[CEB]

If there’s one thing that’s clear from the thread linked to, it’s that I don’t exempt myself from putting myself right on a few points on which I was previously unsure

[Proposition Joe]

Sometimes, if I'm bored, scanning through a thread like this throws up some cracking stuff. I'd completely forgotten about Rainbow Dildo Butt Monkey.

Enjoyed Hoover Attack's theory about the dinosaurs *really* becoming extinct because all the male dinos were too busy being gay.

[CEB]

We’ve recently found out that dinosaurs had lots more feathers than previously thought, so they’re not gay, they’re just very camp

[Proposition Joe]

The 'T' in T-Rex actually stands for 'top'.