The trans debate

[CEB]

I would imagine that trying to maintain a supportive relationship is all that’s possible really. It’s a horrendous situation for all concerned, and the charities that unquestioningly affirm this stuff, dressing it all up in rainbows and glitter while families are torn apart (and sometimes doing the tearing themselves as they reinforce the idea that their families hate them) are effectively operating as secular religious cults.
Your colleague is doing the right thing in trying to be supportive, all he can do is be there for her when she needs him

[Max B Gold]

Female to male involves removing flesh and muscle tissue from the forearm or thigh to be fashioned into the rough shape of a penis. It involves horrendous scarring and leaves the “donor” area looking like it has been subject to cruel and unusual torture.

Horrifically, terrifyingly, but predictably, these surgeries are fetishised and framed as aspiration on trans reddits.

Interestingly, it is female people who believe they are trans who are most conditioned to seek surgery to have mastectomies and “bottom surgery”. You’ll note that “trans men” are often photographed topless (how novel - women photographed topless) to show off their scars. While elsewhere, the discourse around adult males who claim to be women is about how their penises are no barrier to being women.

It’s a tale as old as time as soon as you use clear language: men are fine as they are, women have to take drastic steps in order to belong.

Looking forward to Max coming along to substantively address the issues I outline (or claim I hate trans people, hmmm I wonder which one he’ll go for,it’s a mystery etc)

Many thanks for your invitation to reply. Let me comment and help solve the mystery.

PARA 1&2 - highly judgemental comments. I have a concern about the level of disgust and disdain you have for a section of the community who are clearly trying to resolve their mental turmoil. I'm not seeing much empathy.

PARA 3 - I would need to see evidence of your assertion that female to male trans people are more conditioned to seek surgery. Will also need evidence that they are more photographed.

The male to female trans community may have individuals among them who retain their penis for medical or sexual reasons.

I think we agreed a long time ago that our expectation is that they would seek gender reassignment surgery if they believe they are women. Not doing so raises questions. But as you say it could be because the surgery is scarey, scarring, horrific etc.

PARA 4 - I'm not sure about this one. As far as I can see many transwoman go to great lengths to look like "real" women, some don't, some can't etc. A transman probably doesn't need conditioned to want to appear as the gender they are.

I noticed above you referred to Jazz Jennings as him. Tut tut. Show some respect and refer to the person as they request. I appreciate its not hateful to do what you did but it may reveal your underlying lack of acceptance of trans people.

[CEB]

With the greatest of respect Max, f*** off

[Max B Gold]

With the greatest of respect Max, f*** off

Max wins again. Abuse reported. Perma ban requested.

[CEB]

Celebrating the weekend by bumping this thread.

Haven’t watched this yet but going to do so with a packet of biscuits.
It’s not often that people on opposing sides of this debate actually share a platform, so it’s quite a rarity.
Peter Tatchell probably the most well known person on the panel.
Interested to hear the thoughts of anyone who can be arsed to watch

[StillSpike]

When I saw this thread had been bumped, I wondered if this had triggered it.

[CEB]

When I saw this thread had been bumped, I wondered if this had triggered it.

I considered it but I don’t like making life too easy for myself

[Dunners]

Christ, that trailer look awful.

[Dunners]

Celebrating the weekend by bumping this thread.

Haven’t watched this yet but going to do so with a packet of biscuits.
It’s not often that people on opposing sides of this debate actually share a platform, so it’s quite a rarity.
Peter Tatchell probably the most well known person on the panel.
Interested to hear the thoughts of anyone who can be arsed to watch

I'd have probably preferred a mediated discussion between Joyce and Tatchell without the other two. Both made interesting points. And Joyce was right to call out the fact she was the only woman on the panel.

Tatchell's points about not generalising and treating people with respect are all well and good. But it reminds me of my own reaction to religion: If you want to live your life by your own superstitious beliefs then that's up to you. But when you demand that I do the same, then you can f*ck right off.

And that brings me onto one of Joyce's central arguments. Trans is just a belief. It's not a reality. If a bloke puts on a skirt and a bit of lippy, it does not make him a woman. It just makes him a bloke in a skirt. Even if he chops off his genitals and has a surgeon cut him a new bumhole, he's still just a castrated bloke. He'll never be a woman.

Society can be polite, kind, and respectful. But when it comes to public policy and writing legislation, definitions really matter.

There was an element of moral panic with some of the audience questions. But ultimately the statistics about male violence and the under-reporting of rape and other crimes has to be one of the deciding factors behind whether women only spaces must remain legally enforceable. I've had to deal with safeguarding decisions before and, as much as it can make people feel uncomfortable and prejudged, assuming and planning for the worst is unfortunately a necessity.

It was a shame the clip ended before we got to hear Tatchell's response to the questions about comparing trans rights activism with other civil rights movements, and on the use of the "cis" suffix when referring to women.

[CEB]

Mostly agree with that, though I think your phrase “bloke in a dress” deserves a bit more scrutiny/clarity.
That is to say - while I don’t think you mean it that way, “bloke in a dress” kind of sounds as if “blokes” shouldn’t wear dresses, and even the word “bloke” is casually sort of masculine, and so inherently sort of grates against said “blokes”
IMO it’s worth reinforcing that it’s the *idea* that femininity is only for women that is the problem, and that men in dresses is fine for those men who feel comfortable in them.

Overall I think the lack of clarity and trans activism’s vagueness (by necessity because all its claims are abstract and belief based) is what allows space for obvious perverts - the sort of people we all knew existed until about ten minutes ago - to claim that their sexual fetishes actually mean that straight men are being oppressed by women who want to keep them out of their spaces

[Dunners]

Mostly agree with that, though I think your phrase “bloke in a dress” deserves a bit more scrutiny/clarity.
That is to say - while I don’t think you mean it that way, “bloke in a dress” kind of sounds as if “blokes” shouldn’t wear dresses, and even the word “bloke” is casually sort of masculine, and so inherently sort of grates against said “blokes”

Fair point. It wasn't my intention, but I can see how it could be taken that way.

[CEB]

Where Max’yyy is right is that there *is* a not small section of those who have objections to trans activism who actually are all about enforcing gender norms.

Of course where he’s wrong is in dismissing out of hand the substantial, progressive arguments, in the process showing that he’s only really hearing male voices, whether they’re the ravings and self pity of Linehan, the deranged obnoxious misogyny of Owen Jones or the carefully pitched voice of a man who believes he’s a woman.

[CEB]

The guy next to Tatchell though, is a bloke in a dress. That’s a person to whom the phrase is applicable

[Dunners]

I sensed that Tatchell was wishing Freda to STFU at times.

[CEB]

Trans activism is at its most successful when men who believe they’re women don’t actually talk about their understanding of what it is to be a woman

[CEB]

There was an element of moral panic with some of the audience questions.

I just watched - as we’re broadly in agreement, before I give my own thoughts on the debate, this bit of what you said i’m interested in, because I was listening out for something that could be interpreted as having a basis in, or an element of, moral panic, and drew a blank. Not saying it wasn’t there, but since my perception of my own views on this is that while im strident, i’m not entrenched, im interested in where I might have a blind spot?

[Dunners]

There was an element of moral panic with some of the audience questions.

I just watched - as we’re broadly in agreement, before I give my own thoughts on the debate, this bit of what you said i’m interested in, because I was listening out for something that could be interpreted as having a basis in, or an element of, moral panic, and drew a blank. Not saying it wasn’t there, but since my perception of my own views on this is that while im strident, i’m not entrenched, im interested in where I might have a blind spot?

I had been listening to the audio in the background and thought I'd heard a Maud Flanders-type cry out for someone to think about the children. But I've now watched parts and can see that it was actually someone making the point that, as children's brains are not fully developed, they should not be subjected to certain procedures. Given that this has happened it would be unfair to dismiss it as moral panic.

Also, thanks a bunch for making me watch it. Previously I'd only had to suffer the sound of Freda Wallace. Now I've had to endure watching the gobsh*te too. What a mess. But it has got me thinking if the IEA (which is a bit dodge) has deliberately chosen Freda.

[CEB]

I think Helen Joyce sort of addressed that - the organisations and people who *should* be making their cases still maintain that they won’t debate or face scrutiny, so the people who actually do show up for these things are more demonstrative of the general bullshit of the movement than they are representing the specific aims of organisations involved in lobbying government or training organisations or working with families etc.

However, the pairing of Tatchell and Fred was telling, and revealing of the wider movement: Tatchell is a fool living in the past, making tired analogies to gay rights and civil rights that don’t stand up to scrutiny, while occasionally going waaaaay off message by saying things that are the exact opposite of what trans activism demands, while Fred was sat there as an inadvertent example of the actual impact of demanding that society validates mens delusions and fetishes

This is good: https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/november ... nt-worked/ and is why I bear in mind that platforms might have a slant on this stuff, but don’t buy into the idea that anyone appearing on a platform organised by someone right of Billy Bragg is in bad faith

[Long slender neck]

Woman forfeits pool tournament final because opponent was trans

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/other ... iting.html

I get this sort of thing usually, but do men really have an advantage in this 'sport'?

[Proposition Joe]

Woman forfeits pool tournament final because opponent was trans

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/other ... iting.html

I get this sort of thing usually, but do men really have an advantage in this 'sport'?

I dunno, but now women play in the men's darts they still get pumped more often than not so there must be some advantage in things where athletic/physical differences aren't always immediately obvious.

[Long slender neck]

Are you saying men are just better at stuff?

[Dunners]

Are you saying men are just better at stuff?

Something I vaguely recall reading was that, to be leading in these sports, requires a dedication to repeatedly practicing mindless and relatively pointless tasks. And that you're just more likely to find men meeting that description than women.

[Long slender neck]

No biological advantage then

[Dunners]

Not that I'm aware of. Although, I could be completely wrong.

[Daily Express bot]

Having played pool over many years for fun I’d say that there would be no disadvantage. Some shots require great finesse and technical thought and have been trounced by female opponents many times.