Employment Termination

[BIGRON]

Hi all , my brother has been in his job as a warehouseman in a small company for nearly 6 years , only about 15 people work there inc luding half a dozen in the shop ( haberdashery ) he's heard a whisper off a fellow worker that they will be getting rid of him at the end of the month , he would have to be replaced as the job he does cannot be covered by staff that are already there , can the the company dissmiss him without reason and would he be intitled to redundancy ? , he's 53 years old , thanks in anticipation .

[Rich Tea Wellin]

Lots of nuances to the answer, mainly depending on what his contract says.

As far as i understand it, unless he's on a non-guareenteed hours contract then they can only get rid if theres a level of misconduct, and even so, he'd have had to have gone through verbal and written warnings with his acknowledgement of these. If they are getting rid of him to cut costs then they will need to offer redundancy.

Get him to read his contract and maybe talk to the HR person (if there is one), or citizens advice if not.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

Also probably worth confirming if this rumours true before doing anything tbh.

[Fisch]

Employment law is very clear and employers must have a written procedure which obeys that law If they want him out then wait and see if they follow their own procedures. If they don't.... tribunal here we come.
In short, if he has done some unspeakable act which can be described as "gross misconduct" then they can sack him without a final warning but it still must be done as per their procedure. If it is about a minor matter then a warning must be given first. If they have no written procedure (to which his employment contract must refer) then they are in the sh*t.... deservedly so.

[LittleMate]

Ron, I don't think its as clear as the others. They may re-allocate his role amongst several people and attempt to get round it that way. They would probably use the line of "business necessity in uncertain times". If they re-invent his role weeks, or a few months afterwards then in addition to the redundancy he would have either a claim against the company and possibly an entitlement to be considered for the position. The employer would be gambling in this instance that your brother had moved on to another job and so was not concerned about the past.

Cr8p news whatever and gl to your brother.

[Lucky7]

Is he on full contract or zero hours Ron?
Also is he part of a Union if so that’s what you pay your subscription for in times like these
Good advice on seeing if it’s true first though

[spen666]

Here's a radical suggestion. Ask an Employment law specialist rather than a bunch of chancers on an internet forum whose legal knowledge is in some cases very suspect.


No, I am not an employment law specialist & am sensible enough not to offer opinion without all the facts & the requisite knowledge of the law

[Max B Gold]

Contact the union rep.

If no union firstly confirm they mean to get rid of you. If so, torch the place. HTH.

[Max B Gold]

No, I am not an employment law specialist & am sensible enough not to offer opinion without all the facts & the requisite knowledge of the law

Superb

[BIGRON]

Is he on full contract or zero hours Ron?
Also is he part of a Union if so that’s what you pay your subscription for in times like these
Good advice on seeing if it’s true first though

Not in a union and on a full cotract , he will no doubt wait until its confirmed , thank you all for your replys .

[EliotNes]

Employment law is very clear and employers must have a written procedure which obeys that law If they want him out then wait and see if they follow their own procedures. If they don't.... tribunal here we come.
In short, if he has done some unspeakable act which can be described as "gross misconduct" then they can sack him without a final warning but it still must be done as per their procedure. If it is about a minor matter then a warning must be given first. If they have no written procedure (to which his employment contract must refer) then they are in the sh*t.... deservedly so.

I’ve run my own businesses for 24 years. This answer is the best given to you.

[Beradogs]

Hold on. Why can’t they make him redundant? I run my own business and get rid of people if we ain’t making any money. Little mate is right.

[tuffers#1]

No, I am not an employment law specialist & am sensible enough not to offer opinion without all the facts & the requisite knowledge of the law

Superb

So what is your law speciality spen ?

[spen666]

No, I am not an employment law specialist & am sensible enough not to offer opinion without all the facts & the requisite knowledge of the law

Superb

So what is your law speciality spen ?

I have a specialist skill in bending the law!

predominantly criminal law

[Byways1]

Hi all , my brother has been in his job as a warehouseman in a small company for nearly 6 years , only about 15 people work there inc luding half a dozen in the shop ( haberdashery ) he's heard a whisper off a fellow worker that they will be getting rid of him at the end of the month , he would have to be replaced as the job he does cannot be covered by staff that are already there , can the the company dissmiss him without reason and would he be intitled to redundancy ? , he's 53 years old , thanks in anticipation .

It’s not the person who is made redundant it’s the job.
If they take on a new employee to replace him he will have a case for wrongful dismissal.
They can of course spread his work between the others and this is what a lot of companies do.
They will also have to go through a redundancy selection criteria if there are other people who do the same job. This will be made up of several things like attendance etc.
Failure to follow could result in a tribunal claim.

[Stowaway]

Is he on full contract or zero hours Ron?
Also is he part of a Union if so that’s what you pay your subscription for in times like these
Good advice on seeing if it’s true first though

Not in a union and on a full cotract , he will no doubt wait until its confirmed , thank you all for your replys .

Not in a Union. FFS, why not? That’s exactly what unions are for. At times like this they’re worth their weight in gold.

[LittleMate]

Employment law is very clear and employers must have a written procedure which obeys that law If they want him out then wait and see if they follow their own procedures. If they don't.... tribunal here we come.
In short, if he has done some unspeakable act which can be described as "gross misconduct" then they can sack him without a final warning but it still must be done as per their procedure. If it is about a minor matter then a warning must be given first. If they have no written procedure (to which his employment contract must refer) then they are in the sh*t.... deservedly so.

I’ve run my own businesses for 24 years. This answer is the best given to you.

Nessy, BIGRON says "getting rid". What's written applies to sacking. Its most likely a redundancy and as Byways says its the position that's made redundant - the person is the consequence. In such a situation Byways has it spelt out very well.

[SheffieldO]

Ron, ask your brother if he has home contents insurance. More than likely he will have legal expenses as part of this policy. This will give access to legal services for a modest excess - usually £100 or so. If anyone reading this is in work, not in a Union and no Legal expenses insurance - you should consider upgrading insurance on renewal or join a Union. Access to justice in this country has been systematically undermined by the Tories and has served to embolden bad employers and created a culture of delinquency in terms of compliance with employment rights.
What follows is a brief trot through employment rights. It is no substitute for legal advice. There is a lot of ignorance in terms of the law in this area. The bullshit that is spun by the Murdoch et al media suggests that employment rights in the UK are borne of some kind of Socialist paradise. Sadly, the opposite is the harsh reality of modern Britain. For all of the rights we have, problems with access to justice renders most of these rights merely theoretical unless you posess the intellectual or economic means to enforce these rights.
Employers can reorganise workforce or reduce headcount - redundancy is a potentially fair reason for dismissal.
If brother performs same work as other then arguably he needs to be in a pool with others all of whom may be at risk of redundancy. They should be scored against objective criteria under a redundancy matrix. If the loser has more than 2 years service they will be entitled to a redundancy payment and notice or pay in lieu.
Where employer fails to follow a proper procedure this could amount to an unfair dismissal. The fact that your brother has learned in advance of any procedure that he to be dismissed suggests that the process has been predetermined - this could undermine the fairness of the dismissal.
Nb - a wrongful dismissal is simply a dismissal that is in beach of contract - this is distinct from an unfair dismissal which is a statutory basis for an ET claim.
Going to citizens advice will elicit little more than tea and sympathy. A law centre may be a better bet if no legal expenses insurance or alternatively try to find an employment lawyer that will determine if the claim has reasonable prospects of success and take the claim on a damages based agreement ( no win no fee).
In Employment Tribunals the costs regime means that in most circumstances each party bear own legal costs win, lose or draw. No point in privately paying a lawyer to run claim if outcome is simply moving money from employers pocket to that of lawyer. Cost benefit analyis has to be considered at outset.
There are strict time limits for ET claims. 3 months less a day for most claims. 6 months for a redundancy payment.
Suggest your brother starts looking around for another job just in case he unsuccessful in persuading employer to do the right thing. Having a viable ET claim is all well and good, but it won't pay the bills in the meantime. Due to Tories gutting admin staff, hearing centres and not recruiting enough judges (although recent wave of hires), delays in Employment Tribunal proceedings are commonplace .
I wish your brother the best of luck in resolving this issue to his satisfaction.

[BIGRON]

My Brother lives with my old mum ( 90 years old ) in a council flat with no home insurance , only 2 people in the warehouse doing the heavy lifting , the rest of the staff ( about a dozen ) are all ladies and do picking and packing as well as shop work , he tells me it would be too much for one guy as he has had to do it on his own when the other guy has been sick or on holiday , the other guy is a couple of years older than my brother and has been there 10 years , my brother is worried he will struggle to get a new job at his age as he has no qualifications , here's hoping the rumors are wrong

[Byways1]

Is he on full contract or zero hours Ron?
Also is he part of a Union if so that’s what you pay your subscription for in times like these
Good advice on seeing if it’s true first though

Not in a union and on a full cotract , he will no doubt wait until its confirmed , thank you all for your replys .

Not in a Union. FFS, why not? That’s exactly what unions are for. At times like this they’re worth their weight in gold.

Not in my experience.
I and 3 others were in the Union in my previous job where a woman was, in my opinion, unfairly selected for redundancy, she contacted the Union and ask for support. They were absolutely useless. They at first said that it will be at least 48 hours before someone would contact her, they then refused to come out and offer her support.i phoned them and was virtually told it was none of my business.
She lost her job and rest of us resigned from the Union.
They took our money for over 10 years and when representation was required,they we’re nowhere to be seen.
This was Unite, East of England Branch.

[LittleMate]

Not in a union and on a full cotract , he will no doubt wait until its confirmed , thank you all for your replys .

Not in a Union. FFS, why not? That’s exactly what unions are for. At times like this they’re worth their weight in gold.

Not in my experience.
I and 3 others were in the Union in my previous job where a woman was, in my opinion, unfairly selected for redundancy, she contacted the Union and ask for support. They were absolutely useless. They at first said that it will be at least 48 hours before someone would contact her, they then refused to come out and offer her support.i phoned them and was virtually told it was none of my business.
She lost her job and rest of us resigned from the Union.
They took our money for over 10 years and when representation was required,they we’re nowhere to be seen.
This was Unite, East of England Branch.

Poor support from Unite. I got pals who work on the DLR and they get very good support from their rail union.

[Byways1]

Ron, ask your brother if he has home contents insurance. More than likely he will have legal expenses as part of this policy. This will give access to legal services for a modest excess - usually £100 or so. If anyone reading this is in work, not in a Union and no Legal expenses insurance - you should consider upgrading insurance on renewal or join a Union. Access to justice in this country has been systematically undermined by the Tories and has served to embolden bad employers and created a culture of delinquency in terms of compliance with employment rights.
What follows is a brief trot through employment rights. It is no substitute for legal advice. There is a lot of ignorance in terms of the law in this area. The bullshit that is spun by the Murdoch et al media suggests that employment rights in the UK are borne of some kind of Socialist paradise. Sadly, the opposite is the harsh reality of modern Britain. For all of the rights we have, problems with access to justice renders most of these rights merely theoretical unless you posess the intellectual or economic means to enforce these rights.
Employers can reorganise workforce or reduce headcount - redundancy is a potentially fair reason for dismissal.
If brother performs same work as other then arguably he needs to be in a pool with others all of whom may be at risk of redundancy. They should be scored against objective criteria under a redundancy matrix. If the loser has more than 2 years service they will be entitled to a redundancy payment and notice or pay in lieu.
Where employer fails to follow a proper procedure this could amount to an unfair dismissal. The fact that your brother has learned in advance of any procedure that he to be dismissed suggests that the process has been predetermined - this could undermine the fairness of the dismissal.
Nb - a wrongful dismissal is simply a dismissal that is in beach of contract - this is distinct from an unfair dismissal which is a statutory basis for an ET claim.
Going to citizens advice will elicit little more than tea and sympathy. A law centre may be a better bet if no legal expenses insurance or alternatively try to find an employment lawyer that will determine if the claim has reasonable prospects of success and take the claim on a damages based agreement ( no win no fee).
In Employment Tribunals the costs regime means that in most circumstances each party bear own legal costs win, lose or draw. No point in privately paying a lawyer to run claim if outcome is simply moving money from employers pocket to that of lawyer. Cost benefit analyis has to be considered at outset.
There are strict time limits for ET claims. 3 months less a day for most claims. 6 months for a redundancy payment.
Suggest your brother starts looking around for another job just in case he unsuccessful in persuading employer to do the right thing. Having a viable ET claim is all well and good, but it won't pay the bills in the meantime. Due to Tories gutting admin staff, hearing centres and not recruiting enough judges (although recent wave of hires), delays in Employment Tribunal proceedings are commonplace .
I wish your brother the best of luck in resolving this issue to his satisfaction.

Also a Lawyer will not take on a case unless there is a 70% chance of success.
Any compensation is likely to be a few grand.
If you find a job in the meantime this will be taken into account and the state will recover any money they paid to you out of your compensation.
Don’t believe the Daily Mail.
Going to Court is not an attractive option.
I’ve worked it out that your brother is entitled to a minimum £3750 Tax free plus any accrued holiday pay.
He will also be entitled to 5 weeks notice, this is Taxable and can be paid in liew.
To be honest if a employer doesn’t want you then it’s best to take the money and get out.
He will find something I’m sure, and probably better than what he has already got.
Good luck.

[Byways1]

Not in a Union. FFS, why not? That’s exactly what unions are for. At times like this they’re worth their weight in gold.

Not in my experience.
I and 3 others were in the Union in my previous job where a woman was, in my opinion, unfairly selected for redundancy, she contacted the Union and ask for support. They were absolutely useless. They at first said that it will be at least 48 hours before someone would contact her, they then refused to come out and offer her support.i phoned them and was virtually told it was none of my business.
She lost her job and rest of us resigned from the Union.
They took our money for over 10 years and when representation was required,they we’re nowhere to be seen.
This was Unite, East of England Branch.

Poor support from Unite. I got pals who work on the DLR and they get very good support from their rail union.

Well I left the company at the same time as this lady (voluntary redundancy)
The next company I joined recognised the Union and had close co operation with them.
Unfortunately the plant shut a few weeks ago and the Union rep (not the union) negotiated a superb severance deal for all employees Union members or not.
I walked out with a tidy sum after just 14 months.
I said to this fella that he should be in a full time Union job as his support was superb.
He also was disgusted how they they refused to come out and said that shouldn’t have happened.
It seems to me that certain people in the Union have no idea how to operate in the modern world. The closed shop no longer exists and they have no idea how to attract new members.
Refusing to come out and offer support when a colleague is facing redundancy is hardly going to attract new members.

[BoniO]

There's a lot of good advice on here. From experience I would agree with those who say that it's not an easy or inexpensive path to go to an ET and that's the sad fact of it these days.

However, if you get a positive legal view of your situation from a law centre - preferably written - then you have a reasonable chance of convincing the employer that you are looking to go down the ET route. The employer may call your bluff or could offer some kind of settlement if he doesn't want to risk being taken to court. 50:50 chance of getting some kind of result.

In my personal experience, I was in a union and got a written legal overview of my situation from them. I didn't get any further assistance from the union but was able to "go it alone" with my company using appropriate quotes from the legal overview that basically convinced the company that they might lose any possible court action and/or it would tie up too much time for their staff. Fortunately they gave me a good settlement. Good luck anyway.

[Harlow]

Hi Big Ron,

Sorry to hear about your brother's situation. This may have been mentioned already but I would advise him to speak to ACAS. Details on the internet.
They are very helpful (they once helped me to process a tribunal claim). Even if it is redundancy, Companies are supposed to go through proper procedures.

Make sure he has all the facts written down. Out of interest, I was told a few years back that most companies lose tribunal cases due to lack of paperwork. I suspect your bro's employer will not have proper procedures in place.

Good luck with this