Abortion at 34 weeks case...

[Rich Tea Wellin]

I'm struggling with this one..A woman got jailed for aborting a foetus at 34 weeks, which is well beyond the legal limit. I'm not sure about the sentence for a woman with 3 kids but that's perhaps a different conversation.

I'm a leftie and very much pro-choice but i'm struggling with the reaction to this from some quarters...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... man-jailed



This foetus was 6 weeks from full-term...

Interested in opinions.

[Long slender neck]

Oh great 'The Abortion Debate', this will go well.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

yeh was worried about that. ill get some popcorn when i pop out.

Thing is, i'm very pro-life but think it's ridiculous people are saying that women should have a choice to kill a baby 6 weeks from full-term. Which then makes me question if i'm pro-life and where the cut off is, and why. Interesting.

[Give it to Jabo]

Whatever the rights and wrongs, a lengthy prison sentence does not seem to me to be the answer.

[spen666]

Not sure what the 28 week reference in title has to do with the story.

in text you say 34 weeks. The Guardian says 32-34 weeks

i'm a little confused

[The Mindsweep]

Hope this helps

Says the tweet is unavailable but click on it and it should work

[Friend or fart]

I think the controversy lies with the fact that women seem to get harsher sentences than men for the same crime. Also women do far less offending than men. I seen quoted that men who rape often don't even come to trial. Also this is mainly men poking their nose in a "woman" thing. Been interesting to know how many Boarders who comment on this thread, identify as a male as I do. I am sure Tuffers will have plenty to say!

[spen666]

I think the controversy lies with the fact that women seem to get harsher sentences than men for the same crime. .....

Not sure many men are convicted for aborting a child at 32/34/28 weeks of their own pregnancy....although in current climate

[Rich Tea Wellin]

Not sure what the 28 week reference in title has to do with the story.

in text you say 34 weeks. The Guardian says 32-34 weeks

i'm a little confused

Edited. She got put inside for 28 months which I think I got mixed up with

[Long slender neck]

Desperate people will do desperate things.

I'm glad there is a limit, but I dont think prison is appropriate.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

Desperate people will do desperate things.

I'm glad there is a limit, but I dont think prison is appropriate.

Get that but why wasn’t she desperate at 10 weeks?

[CEB]

Desperate people will do desperate things.

I'm glad there is a limit, but I dont think prison is appropriate.

Get that but why wasn’t she desperate at 10 weeks?

Yes, pregnant women should be more careful in when they plan to have a crisis which turns their world upside down.

Bloody hell, engage your brain on this one, eh?

[Rich Tea Wellin]

Desperate people will do desperate things.

I'm glad there is a limit, but I dont think prison is appropriate.

Get that but why wasn’t she desperate at 10 weeks?

Yes, pregnant women should be more careful in when they plan to have a crisis which turns their world upside down.

Bloody hell, engage your brain on this one, eh?

I admit I’m ignorant on the details, so perhaps shouldn’t comment. Feel free to educate me (your fav pastime) but there’s a question of when a woman is making a decision about her body and their lives only, right? Would you have the same view if a woman had an unplanned crisis 2 weeks post birth? Which happens a lot btw…There’s people out there today born at 34 weeks…

[CEB]

yeh was worried about that. ill get some popcorn when i pop out.

Thing is, i'm very pro-life but think it's ridiculous people are saying that women should have a choice to kill a baby 6 weeks from full-term. Which then makes me question if i'm pro-life and where the cut off is, and why. Interesting.

I think (hope?) you mean that you are pro-choice and just got your terms mixed up.

Just to clarify, “pro-life” is a loaded term that suggests that being in favour of abortion rights is the opposite of “pro-life”

Now, I’m going to say this once, and very clearly:

The choice *society* has, is between aiding women who need abortions to get them safely, and leaving them to get them unsafely.
Women will get abortions if they feel they need one.

It should go without saying that the later in pregnancy it happens, the more likely it is that the woman is having a significant crisis where she feels she has no other choice.

Absolutely nobody is saying that abortion should be casually assumed to be available at all stages of pregnancy as if there’s no difference between any stage.

The point is that any woman seeking a late term abortion is likely to be in dire need of support - with all options on the table - and that society shouldn’t be arranged so that women in a crisis period like that feel the need to take action independently of safe health care.

[CEB]

Get that but why wasn’t she desperate at 10 weeks?

Yes, pregnant women should be more careful in when they plan to have a crisis which turns their world upside down.

Bloody hell, engage your brain on this one, eh?

I admit I’m ignorant on the details, so perhaps shouldn’t comment. Feel free to educate me (your fav pastime) but there’s a question of when a woman is making a decision about her body and their lives only, right? Would you have the same view if a woman had an unplanned crisis 2 weeks post birth? Which happens a lot btw…There’s people out there today born at 34 weeks…

You haven’t asked a clear question here. Can you rephrase it so I can answer it honestly?

[Rich Tea Wellin]

Yes, pregnant women should be more careful in when they plan to have a crisis which turns their world upside down.

Bloody hell, engage your brain on this one, eh?

I admit I’m ignorant on the details, so perhaps shouldn’t comment. Feel free to educate me (your fav pastime) but there’s a question of when a woman is making a decision about her body and their lives only, right? Would you have the same view if a woman had an unplanned crisis 2 weeks post birth? Which happens a lot btw…There’s people out there today born at 34 weeks…

You haven’t asked a clear question here. Can you rephrase it so I can answer it honestly?

For clarity I meant pro choice.

You insinuated in your post that the mental state, and perhaps her situation comes above the life of a 34 week foetus, right ? The law obviously says it isn’t so I don’t think im completely coming from left field here.

(As a side note, in this country a child has no human rights until it’s born and therefore life and death decisions during child birth don’t have to factor the child in and the mother can be prioritised)

My question is would you still apply the same rules you seem to have insinuated once the child had been born, if, for example it caused the mother untold mental issues?

[CEB]

Your question is still unclear.

But you are still approaching this from the wrong perspective.
Women who feel they need abortions *will* get them.
The only choice society has is whether we enable it to happen safely or not.

So whatever you’re talking about with regard to “who comes above someone else” is irrelevant, because the issue, when we are discussing women in crisis, is not between an abortion and a child, but between a safe abortion or a coat hanger.

[CEB]

What’s quite telling is your casual comfort with the idea that I’d be applying rules.
My position is that it is not within my gift to “apply rules” to women’s bodies.

[CEB]

This particular case seems awful, with a woman in a scary, highly stressful situation during an unprecedented time of stress for everyone in the world.
What sticks out to me is that she wasn’t getting support that she desperately needed, and wasn’t in a situation where there was a “good” option. And even the “lying” afterwards is the result of there being no safe way to disclose what happened.


The whole “would you feel different in X situation?” is barking up the wrong tree.
What cases like this illustrate is not the need to have clarity over when it’s OK to have an abortion, but the need for vulnerable women to have access to support - mental health support, shelter, counselling, financial assistance, escape from violent/coercive control etc.

If we actually accept that abortion at all stages should not be a criminal offence, then we enable women considering abortion to seek support, knowing that doing so will not put them on the radar as having committed a crime if the support turns out to not be enough.

Decriminalisation of abortion at all stages does not = support of late stage abortion. It just means that we recognise that archaic laws are not fit for purpose when they have this outcome.

[tuffers#1]

I am sure Tuffers will have plenty to say!

I have very little to say on this.

My older brother lived for 1 hour after
A breach birth complication &
Strangulation .

My Mother carried the pain her entire life &
Was looking forward to meeting up with the baby
She never nursed in the last few days of her life .

What women deal with in Pregnancy/Childbirth
Is Simply beyond my Comprehension .

[Fisch]

I am sure Tuffers will have plenty to say!

I have very little to say on this.

My older brother lived for 1 hour after
A breach birth complication &
Strangulation .

My Mother carried the pain her entire life &
Was looking forward to meeting up with the baby
She never nursed in the last few days of her life .

What women deal with in Pregnancy/Childbirth
Is Simply beyond my Comprehension .

Sounds sensible to me. Perhaps the judgement process of each case should be adjudicated only by women. If there's a jury, 12 women.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

What’s quite telling is your casual comfort with the idea that I’d be applying rules.
My position is that it is not within my gift to “apply rules” to women’s bodies.

It’s not with casual comfort, that’s something you’ve decided.

I think the question you’re dodging is at what point do we apply rules to unborn babies bodies, because at the time of abortion it’s not just her body she’s making a decision on, is it?

[Long slender neck]

if the support turns out to not be enough.

Wouldn't be comfortable with this justifying a late stage abortion.

[Rich Tea Wellin]

This particular case seems awful, with a woman in a scary, highly stressful situation during an unprecedented time of stress for everyone in the world.
What sticks out to me is that she wasn’t getting support that she desperately needed, and wasn’t in a situation where there was a “good” option. And even the “lying” afterwards is the result of there being no safe way to disclose what happened.


The whole “would you feel different in X situation?” is barking up the wrong tree.
What cases like this illustrate is not the need to have clarity over when it’s OK to have an abortion, but the need for vulnerable women to have access to support - mental health support, shelter, counselling, financial assistance, escape from violent/coercive control etc.

If we actually accept that abortion at all stages should not be a criminal offence, then we enable women considering abortion to seek support, knowing that doing so will not put them on the radar as having committed a crime if the support turns out to not be enough.

Decriminalisation of abortion at all stages does not = support of late stage abortion. It just means that we recognise that archaic laws are not fit for purpose when they have this outcome.

Agree with most of that. Thanks for the sensible response. Seen first hand the absolute state of support currently for all women at all stages of childbirth on the nhs. Even post birth, we had two visits from midwives and they asked once “assume you’re alright”…which she wasn’t but wasn’t really given the opportunity to expand on that. The care was so bad, in fact, it’s all but made up our minds that a second one would be too traumatic based on what happened first time round.

Do you think decriminalisation would help make more women find suitable support and what are the actual chances of that support being there? In principle I think you are possibly right, although I’m still a little nervous about no laws about how, where and when you can abort a child, but I’m not sure decriminalisation would lead to the outcome you’ve set out.

[CEB]

What’s quite telling is your casual comfort with the idea that I’d be applying rules.
My position is that it is not within my gift to “apply rules” to women’s bodies.

It’s not with casual comfort, that’s something you’ve decided.

I think the question you’re dodging is at what point do we apply rules to unborn babies bodies, because at the time of abortion it’s not just her body she’s making a decision on, is it?

I don’t see how it can be “dodging the question” when my position on your question is absolutely explicit.

But just to let you know; “it’s not just her body she’s making a decision about” is the language of pro-life discourse.

You’re still talking about what women “should” do, rather than recognising that a woman who feels she needs an abortion *will* get one.