The trans debate

[CEB]

For a start your stats are way off and likely based a skewed self selection - if they’re not, feel free to link to where you got that figure from.

Secondly, what do you think the apparent suicide attempt says, other than “this child is in terrible distress”?

[Max Fowler]

An effeminate boy grows up in an environment where the father will not accept femininity in a boy.

The mother initially accepts her son’s interests, with the not unreasonable assumption that he might be gay.

The father puts his foot down and won’t have it. This causes marital friction.

The couple go to counselling, in a context where the kid’s interests are a battleground.

The parents agree (Susie under duress) to throw away girl toys, calling them inappropriate. This causes their son upset, and to be secretive about his normal interests.

When this comes to a head and Susie realised that the four -six year old won’t suddenly develop “boy” interests, her next step is not “I need to make it clear that being a boy is no barrier to his interests”, but is to take him to a GP. At which point, “this boy is effeminate and may be gay” is never again seen as a potential explanation, despite 85% of children with dysphoria growing out of it as they go through puberty.

The child was then given sex change surgery in Thailand because it’s illegal here at 16, and as a result will have no potential of having children, and little chance of a healthy sex life (Green is on tape joking about how little the doctors had to work with when fashioning her son’s pre-pubescent penis into the shape of a vagina)

If you read this in the context of the Tavistock scandal, where whistleblowers - many gay - have said that Mermaids are effectively medicalising gender non conforming kids who would grow up to be gay, I think the issue is clear

Thank you for the explanation. I get all of that.

That's not totally how she told the story though. She made it clear that it was the child driving this. (For what it's worth, I don't buy the 'My 4 year old said God has made a mistake' line, that just didn't happen. So I don't know how reliable the rest of her recollection is).

[CEB]

I’ll tell you what, if i’d spent my early years being told that Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks, drawing, transformers (oh the irony) Star Wars and jeans were for girls and so I shouldn’t have them, and my parents split up because I wouldn’t stop, and I got taken to the doctor cos of it, I dare say I’d feel pretty damned distressed

[CEB]

An effeminate boy grows up in an environment where the father will not accept femininity in a boy.

The mother initially accepts her son’s interests, with the not unreasonable assumption that he might be gay.

The father puts his foot down and won’t have it. This causes marital friction.

The couple go to counselling, in a context where the kid’s interests are a battleground.

The parents agree (Susie under duress) to throw away girl toys, calling them inappropriate. This causes their son upset, and to be secretive about his normal interests.

When this comes to a head and Susie realised that the four -six year old won’t suddenly develop “boy” interests, her next step is not “I need to make it clear that being a boy is no barrier to his interests”, but is to take him to a GP. At which point, “this boy is effeminate and may be gay” is never again seen as a potential explanation, despite 85% of children with dysphoria growing out of it as they go through puberty.

The child was then given sex change surgery in Thailand because it’s illegal here at 16, and as a result will have no potential of having children, and little chance of a healthy sex life (Green is on tape joking about how little the doctors had to work with when fashioning her son’s pre-pubescent penis into the shape of a vagina)

If you read this in the context of the Tavistock scandal, where whistleblowers - many gay - have said that Mermaids are effectively medicalising gender non conforming kids who would grow up to be gay, I think the issue is clear

Thank you for the explanation. I get all of that.

That's not totally how she told the story though. She made it clear that it was the child driving this. (For what it's worth, I don't buy the 'My 4 year old said God has made a mistake' line, that just didn't happen. So I don't know how reliable the rest of her recollection is).

She didn’t actually make it clear. Note that the child made the claim - in susie’s telling - chronologically *after* it had become an issue with the parents, not before. It’s only in the context of the parents fighting out what’s appropriate that Jack apparently asserts that he is a girl. (Note also that a 6 year old can only ask about the op if he knows there’s an op)

The wider point though is that this isn’t a case study - it’s the mermaids CEO’s now deleted account of her own story, presented as unambiguously inspiring. It doesn’t do a great deal to dispel the allegation that mermaids had a cavalier attitude to concerns they were medicalising gay children.

[CEB]

Actually tuffers, scratch that. Maybe the kid just wasn’t resourceful enough?

[tuffers#1]

I’ll tell you what, if i’d spent my early years being told that Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks, drawing, transformers (oh the irony) Star Wars and jeans were for girls and so I shouldn’t have them, and my parents split up because I wouldn’t stop, and I got taken to the doctor cos of it, I dare say I’d feel pretty damned distressed

Hardly the same as
" Mummy Gods put me in the wrong body " .
I know you think your knowledge is good
But without living inside the head of a trans child
You can only Imagine I'd Guess at best .

[CEB]

So I can only imagine what’s inside the head of a “trans child”, but said four year old male child can accurately note what it is about his mind that he shares with all female people but doesn’t share with male people.

Got it

[tuffers#1]

For a start your stats are way off and likely based a skewed self selection - if they’re not, feel free to link to where you got that figure from.

Secondly, what do you think the apparent suicide attempt says, other than “this child is in terrible distress”?

Havent got a clue why the child attempted suicide .
Possibly the split up of her/his parents because
Of whatever was going on inside the child .


Here are some of the suicide sites i quickly googled
I have little knowledge but am aware its quite high .


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32345113/

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... pt-suicide

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... tal-health

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32345113/

Hope that is enough for you to be getting on with .

Off for Sleep . Back in 8 hours or so .

[CEB]

I’ll tell you what, if i’d spent my early years being told that Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks, drawing, transformers (oh the irony) Star Wars and jeans were for girls and so I shouldn’t have them, and my parents split up because I wouldn’t stop, and I got taken to the doctor cos of it, I dare say I’d feel pretty damned distressed

Hardly the same as
" Mummy Gods put me in the wrong body " .
I know you think your knowledge is good
But without living inside the head of a trans child
You can only Imagine I'd Guess at best .

If my parents split to because dad was angry that I didn’t want to stop playing with girls toys like subbuteo and action man, you’re damned right I’d be wrestling with what was wrong with me that was upsetting my mum and dad so much.

[CEB]

For a start your stats are way off and likely based a skewed self selection - if they’re not, feel free to link to where you got that figure from.

Secondly, what do you think the apparent suicide attempt says, other than “this child is in terrible distress”?

Havent got a clue why the child attempted suicide .
Possibly the split up of her/his parents because
Of whatever was going on inside the child .


Here are some of the suicide sites i quickly googled
I have little knowledge but am aware its quite high .


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32345113/

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... pt-suicide

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... tal-health

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32345113/

Hope that is enough for you to be getting on with .

Off for Sleep . Back in 8 hours or so .

I already see you haven’t looked past the headline on any of those.

[tuffers#1]

So I can only imagine what’s inside the head of a “trans child”, but said four year old male child can accurately note what it is about his mind that he shares with all female people but doesn’t share with male people.

Got it

Have you ?

You seem very sure on Suicide of certain people .
Do you have a Doctorate or some specialist insight into Suicide ?

[tuffers#1]

For a start your stats are way off and likely based a skewed self selection - if they’re not, feel free to link to where you got that figure from.

Secondly, what do you think the apparent suicide attempt says, other than “this child is in terrible distress”?

Havent got a clue why the child attempted suicide .
Possibly the split up of her/his parents because
Of whatever was going on inside the child .


Here are some of the suicide sites i quickly googled
I have little knowledge but am aware its quite high .


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32345113/

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... pt-suicide

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... tal-health

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32345113/

Hope that is enough for you to be getting on with .

Off for Sleep . Back in 8 hours or so .

I already see you haven’t looked past the headline on any of those.

Really ?

" The suicide attempt rate among transgender persons ranges from 32% to 50% across the countries. Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons" .

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/

[CEB]

Your 32% stat seems to be from a survey in India, which doesn’t seem very robust, and I’m not even sure what point you’re making, since I’ve already acknowledged Jack’s distress.

Are you aware of Samaritans guidelines about speculation about causes of suicide? Or do you not look at Samaritans stuff, what with being resourceful?

[CEB]

“Across the countries”

Which countries? Ranges from 32% to 50%? Wow! What factors might account for that difference? What percentage of attempts are successful? What was the methodology? Was it applied uniformly? Who was surveyed? Were the surveys opt-in?

Weaponising suicide is a scummy thing to do. I wouldn’t do it to back up my position unless I was very sure of what I was talking about. You are not.

[tuffers#1]

Your 32% stat seems to be from a survey in India, which doesn’t seem very robust, and I’m not even sure what point you’re making, since I’ve already acknowledged Jack’s distress.

Are you aware of Samaritans guidelines about speculation about causes of suicide? Or do you not look at Samaritans stuff, what with being resourceful?

" India not very robust " ?

Sent a rocket into space .
Has its only Nuclear weapons .

Almost Souns a bit Racist .

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... tal-health

Heres the one in the Gaurdian .

And one from Canada .

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... pt-suicide


They dont have Nuclear Weapons or a space project !

[tuffers#1]

“Across the countries”

Which countries? Ranges from 32% to 50%? Wow! What factors might account for that difference? What percentage of attempts are successful? What was the methodology? Was it applied uniformly? Who was surveyed? Were the surveys opt-in?

Weaponising suicide is a scummy thing to do. I wouldn’t do it to back up my position unless I was very sure of what I was talking about. You are not.

What was the Reason you decided to leave out the Childs attempted Suicide while castigating his Mother ?

[CEB]

Got it; India sent a rocket into space, therefore anything they say about suicide is obviously meaningful and robust.

While you’re here, can you point me in the direction of the statistics for suicide by young trans people?

Once again, I don’t have any doubt whatsoever that a cohort of young people with mental illnesses and other Co-morbidities, as well as family problems may well be at risk of depression , self harm and suicide. It’s just unclear that you have any idea as to what you’re discussing and why.

[tuffers#1]

Actually tuffers, scratch that. Maybe the kid just wasn’t resourceful enough?

seemed resourceful enough .

[CEB]

“Across the countries”

Which countries? Ranges from 32% to 50%? Wow! What factors might account for that difference? What percentage of attempts are successful? What was the methodology? Was it applied uniformly? Who was surveyed? Were the surveys opt-in?

Weaponising suicide is a scummy thing to do. I wouldn’t do it to back up my position unless I was very sure of what I was talking about. You are not.

What was the Reason you decided to leave out the Childs attempted Suicide while castigating his Mother ?

Quite simple - I could, when discussing an apparent attempted suicide, have framed it as further condemnation (mostly of the father - I don’t blame Susie Green for being bullied by a homophobe, though i do blame her for transposing her experience into a homophobic charity detrimental to gay kids) but decided not to, as the suicide attempt isn’t for me to speculate about and could be seen either as the result of intolerable distress at “actually being trans and needing intervention” or from the pressure of being at the centre of a nasty familial dispute in which his personality is a major, ongoing conflict and he’s denied the chance to enjoy his most innocuous interests.

You’re digging very hard to find a problem with my position on this, but you’re not doing very well. You’re assuming bad faith that just isn’t there.

If however, you’re all aboard for taking suicidal16 year old boys to Thailand to have their penises mutilated, knock yourself out

[tuffers#1]

Blimey ,
Very Condescending attitude toward India below

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... pt-suicide
"Transgender teens 7.6 times more likely to attempt suicide" .

Got it; India sent a rocket into space, therefore anything they say about suicide is obviously meaningful and robust.

While you’re here, can you point me in the direction of the statistics for suicide by young trans people?

Once again, I don’t have any doubt whatsoever that a cohort of young people with mental illnesses and other Co-morbidities, as well as family problems may well be at risk of depression , self harm and suicide. It’s just unclear that you have any idea as to what you’re discussing and why.

I have an idea of what I'm discussing but not
Anywhere near your own Considerable waffle
Over the last 32 pages

[tuffers#1]

“Across the countries”

Which countries? Ranges from 32% to 50%? Wow! What factors might account for that difference? What percentage of attempts are successful? What was the methodology? Was it applied uniformly? Who was surveyed? Were the surveys opt-in?

Weaponising suicide is a scummy thing to do. I wouldn’t do it to back up my position unless I was very sure of what I was talking about. You are not.

What was the Reason you decided to leave out the Childs attempted Suicide while castigating his Mother ?

Quite simple - I could, when discussing an apparent attempted suicide, have framed it as further condemnation (mostly of the father - I don’t blame Susie Green for being bullied by a homophobe, though i do blame her for transposing her experience into a homophobic charity detrimental to gay kids) but decided not to, as the suicide attempt isn’t for me to speculate about and could be seen either as the result of intolerable distress at “actually being trans and needing intervention” or from the pressure of being at the centre of a nasty familial dispute in which his personality is a major, ongoing conflict and he’s denied the chance to enjoy his most innocuous interests.

You’re digging very hard to find a problem with my position on this, but you’re not doing very well. You’re assuming bad faith that just isn’t there.

If however, you’re all aboard for taking suicidal16 year old boys to Thailand to have their penises mutilated, knock yourself out

Personally its none of my buisness what 16 year olds do , I Just wondered why a suicide attempt wasnt worthy of a mention .

[CEB]

And I’ve just told you.

[tuffers#1]

And I’ve just told you.

Yes
But would have been so much easier if you had mentioned it while attacking parents originally .

Hindsight eh

Must be mire RESOURCEFUL

Good night im off ta Bed
To dream of Leyton Orient Winning the League


Do you ever dream of Orient winning things ?

[CEB]

So you can’t read then.

[tuffers#1]

So I can only imagine what’s inside the head of a “trans child”, but said four year old male child can accurately note what it is about his mind that he shares with all female people but doesn’t share with male people.

Got it

Mozart wrote a symphony at 4 hadnt he ?