CEB wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:17 am
Re: your first point - yep, that’s fair enough, and I respect your stance there. (I’d be happy to re-adopt that once the extremes of trans activism back the hell off)
And therin lies the problem with your battle against the activists. It's a tired old trick to focus on the complete nut job and in the process a whole community is condemned. Not just the enemy activists.
That approach opens the door for the haters to pile on.
CEB wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:17 am
Re: your first point - yep, that’s fair enough, and I respect your stance there. (I’d be happy to re-adopt that once the extremes of trans activism back the hell off)
And therin lies the problem with your battle against the activists. It's a tired old trick to focus on the complete nut job and in the process a whole community is condemned. Not just the enemy activists.
That approach opens the door for the haters to pile on.
CEB wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:17 am
Re: your first point - yep, that’s fair enough, and I respect your stance there. (I’d be happy to re-adopt that once the extremes of trans activism back the hell off)
And therin lies the problem with your battle against the activists. It's a tired old trick to focus on the complete nut job and in the process a whole community is condemned. Not just the enemy activists.
That approach opens the door for the haters to pile on.
yeah, I think you’re right; I was in the pub last night and over heard this in the bog
“sniff…..f***ing hell City are crap. I blame the foreigners. ‘Ere, you know what mate? second wave radical feminism should never have been abandoned. I was reading some Germaine Greer and do you know what, I reckon the works of Simone De Beauvoir have actually been misinterpreted by liberal feminism. And then I was reading Material Girls by Kathleen Stock - yes, that’s right, she’s the lesbian academic who was forced out of Sussex university, and she reckons that there’s a real risk of the concept of sex being erased in law in favour of nebulous gender identity. and so I reckon we should get a bit of a crew together to go and protest some drag queens. No, no it’s fine, I know that you’re worried about the optics, but honestly mate, I wouldn’t consider it for a second if JK Rowling hadn’t been a bit sarcastic on the twitters”
TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:07 am
So is Rainbow Dildo Butt Monkey (cool name, by the way) linked to this drag act they're protesting about now?
I wouldn’t have thought so. I would imagine that the thinking of the far right goes as far as “some LGBT drag shows have been inappropriate, therefore assume the worst of all of them”
While the other suggestion seems to be that they look to left wing concerns about proposed self ID changes to get themselves riled up? Hmmm, I wonder what’s more likely?
Personally I don’t think drag queen story stuff is a big deal at all. There’s a slight iffiness about it in terms of how LGBT communities really have wholeheartedly adopted the idea that gender non-conformity makes one trans, but I’m way more concerned about that in a clinical context, or about mad parents than about some people who like drag race being interested in a child friendly take on drag.
I just think that many of these organisations have a safeguarding problem that many turn a blind eye to.
This, from Hannah Barnes’s book (Barnes isn’t the Hannah discussed), is the harmful stuff. Billy Elliot if instead of the family recognising that Billy was a talented boy going his own way, instead he is packed off to some loons who think he’s a girl because he likes ballet
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This seems like a bit of a typical Mail sh*t storm rather than anything substantial. Someone has come forward claiming to be the trans person in the story and plausibly denied it played out that way. So it’s not scandalous, but is just really a restating of whether women should be able to have places reserved exclusively for female people.
(Personally I don’t think the answer to that is dependent on scare stories that may well be trumped up or flat out untrue - it’s more about whether women that want places where they’re vulnerable to be single sex have that right or not)
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:28 am
Personally I don’t think drag queen story stuff is a big deal at all. There’s a slight iffiness about it in terms of how LGBT communities really have wholeheartedly adopted the idea that gender non-conformity makes one trans, but I’m way more concerned about that in a clinical context, or about mad parents than about some people who like drag race being interested in a child friendly take on drag.
I just think that many of these organisations have a safeguarding problem that many turn a blind eye to.
This, from Hannah Barnes’s book (Barnes isn’t the Hannah discussed), is the harmful stuff. Billy Elliot if instead of the family recognising that Billy was a talented boy going his own way, instead he is packed off to some loons who think he’s a girl because he likes ballet
Gotta say, reading the review of that book, it does sound absolutely nuts but still reads more as a straight up medical scandal than being completely about the "ideology" itself. And no, I won't be reading it as, even if I had the inclination, I don't have the bleeding time.
But I will admit some aspects of this thread have made me think. At the heart of it, I just want people to be happy in themselves and people can just do them, it's all good. I want my kid to be content and comfortable in who he is, however that ends up playing out and at 18 months it's amazing to see him developing his personality and likes etc. But as he gets older, if he doesn't like sport, or ends up doing "more feminine" leaning things, I can't see that I'd immediately think about opening up a dialogue as to whether he's actually a girl or not, as some people seem to be advocating that one should.
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:28 am
Personally I don’t think drag queen story stuff is a big deal at all. There’s a slight iffiness about it in terms of how LGBT communities really have wholeheartedly adopted the idea that gender non-conformity makes one trans, but I’m way more concerned about that in a clinical context, or about mad parents than about some people who like drag race being interested in a child friendly take on drag.
I just think that many of these organisations have a safeguarding problem that many turn a blind eye to.
This, from Hannah Barnes’s book (Barnes isn’t the Hannah discussed), is the harmful stuff. Billy Elliot if instead of the family recognising that Billy was a talented boy going his own way, instead he is packed off to some loons who think he’s a girl because he likes ballet
Gotta say, reading the review of that book, it does sound absolutely nuts but still reads more as a straight up medical scandal than being completely about the "ideology" itself. And no, I won't be reading it as, even if I had the inclination, I don't have the bleeding time.
But I will admit some aspects of this thread have made me think. At the heart of it, I just want people to be happy in themselves and people can just do them, it's all good. I want my kid to be content and comfortable in who he is, however that ends up playing out and at 18 months it's amazing to see him developing his personality and likes etc. But as he gets older, if he doesn't like sport, or ends up doing "more feminine" leaning things, I can't see that I'd immediately think about opening up a dialogue as to whether he's actually a girl or not, as some people seem to be advocating that one should.
It’s definitely not completely about the ideology, but the ideology has meant that those who have been raising alarms about this scandal for years have been subject to some horrendous stuff that is absolutely about closing ranks. It’s been in plain sight for years as a medical scandal - it becomes ideological when people concerned are demonised for it. You only need to see the massive backlash against the investigations in this book and now the New York Times from trans activists to see the ideology.
Though I think that there *is* a sometimes well meaning but ultimately ideological underpinning to some aspects of the scandal - adults thinking “I wish I’d had treatment as a child” being so certain about their crusade that they didn’t do enough scrutiny of whether they were actually helping.
So the whole thing is based on a certainty that this statement is true, with no caveats; “trans children know who they are”
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:28 am
Personally I don’t think drag queen story stuff is a big deal at all. There’s a slight iffiness about it in terms of how LGBT communities really have wholeheartedly adopted the idea that gender non-conformity makes one trans, but I’m way more concerned about that in a clinical context, or about mad parents than about some people who like drag race being interested in a child friendly take on drag.
I just think that many of these organisations have a safeguarding problem that many turn a blind eye to.
This, from Hannah Barnes’s book (Barnes isn’t the Hannah discussed), is the harmful stuff. Billy Elliot if instead of the family recognising that Billy was a talented boy going his own way, instead he is packed off to some loons who think he’s a girl because he likes ballet
Gotta say, reading the review of that book, it does sound absolutely nuts but still reads more as a straight up medical scandal than being completely about the "ideology" itself. And no, I won't be reading it as, even if I had the inclination, I don't have the bleeding time.
But I will admit some aspects of this thread have made me think. At the heart of it, I just want people to be happy in themselves and people can just do them, it's all good. I want my kid to be content and comfortable in who he is, however that ends up playing out and at 18 months it's amazing to see him developing his personality and likes etc. But as he gets older, if he doesn't like sport, or ends up doing "more feminine" leaning things, I can't see that I'd immediately think about opening up a dialogue as to whether he's actually a girl or not, as some people seem to be advocating that one should.
Agree with all of that. My 2.5 year old did ballet for a bit and now gymnastics with 95% girls. I wouldn’t consider him make or female because of those classes. He’s just a kid enjoying running around. (Although, tbf, it was a bit alarming that they all still dress girls in pink and when play acting as part of the class talk about girls wearing makeup and boys spraying deodorant.)
It goes back to the point I made someone in this thread, which I can’t really wrap my head around. Is being non-conformist to gender stereotypes now a strong indication of being ‘the wrong gender’? Rather than twenty years ago when you were just called a Tom boy? If that’s the case then surely it’s the dangerous stereotypes of what a boy and what a girl should be we should work in fixing.
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:29 am
But as he gets older, if he doesn't like sport, or ends up doing "more feminine" leaning things, I can't see that I'd immediately think about opening up a dialogue
Exactly this mate. I wouldn't speak to my boy either if he turned out like that.
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:29 am
But as he gets older, if he doesn't like sport, or ends up doing "more feminine" leaning things, I can't see that I'd immediately think about opening up a dialogue
Exactly this mate. I wouldn't speak to my boy either if he turned out like that.
I would urge anyone who has even a slight sense of “maybe CEB has a point on some of this” - especially PJ, Apple Wumble and Mindsweep - to watch this.
This is Susie Green’s Ted talk, which she deleted a couple of weeks ago in the wake of the growing scandal around all this.
Watch the first couple of minutes where she says sane things, then prepare to drop your jaw at what the woman who has been in charge of the largest “trans children” charity has to say. It’s genuinely terrifying.
Three minutes in is where you’ll (if you have anything about you) say “sh*t, this is really what she and her husband did to their kid?” But watch the lead up for how sanity gives way for a homophobic father. And remember this isn’t a client of Mermaids, it’s the woman who runs it.
An effeminate boy grows up in an environment where the father will not accept femininity in a boy.
The mother initially accepts her son’s interests, with the not unreasonable assumption that he might be gay.
The father puts his foot down and won’t have it. This causes marital friction.
The couple go to counselling, in a context where the kid’s interests are a battleground.
The parents agree (Susie under duress) to throw away girl toys, calling them inappropriate. This causes their son upset, and to be secretive about his normal interests.
When this comes to a head and Susie realised that the four -six year old won’t suddenly develop “boy” interests, her next step is not “I need to make it clear that being a boy is no barrier to his interests”, but is to take him to a GP. At which point, “this boy is effeminate and may be gay” is never again seen as a potential explanation, despite 85% of children with dysphoria growing out of it as they go through puberty.
The child was then given sex change surgery in Thailand because it’s illegal here at 16, and as a result will have no potential of having children, and little chance of a healthy sex life (Green is on tape joking about how little the doctors had to work with when fashioning her son’s pre-pubescent penis into the shape of a vagina)
If you read this in the context of the Tavistock scandal, where whistleblowers - many gay - have said that Mermaids are effectively medicalising gender non conforming kids who would grow up to be gay, I think the issue is clear
Last edited by CEB on Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The tl;dr question; if a four year old boy who isn’t allowed to play with things he thinks are for girls says “I am a girl”, what is he saying about himself?
CEB wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:21 pm
An effeminate boy grows up in an environment where the father will not accept femininity in a boy.
The mother initially accepts her son’s interests, with the not unreasonable assumption that he might be gay.
The father puts his foot down and won’t have it. This causes marital friction.
The couple go to counselling, in a context where the kid’s interests are a battleground.
The parents agree (Susie under duress) to throw away girl toys, calling them inappropriate. This causes their son upset, and to be secretive about his normal interests.
When this comes to a head and Susie realised that the four -six year old won’t suddenly develop “boy” interests, her next step is not “I need to make it clear that being a boy is no barrier to his interests”, but is to take him to a GP. At which point, “this boy is effeminate and may be gay” is never again seen as a potential explanation, despite 85% of children with dysphoria growing out of it as they go through puberty.
The child was then given sex change surgery in Thailand because it’s illegal here at 16, and as a result will have no potential of having children, and little chance of a healthy sex life (Green is on tape joking about how little the doctors had to work with when fashioning her son’s pre-pubescent penis into the shape of a vagina)
If you read this in the context of the Tavistock scandal, where whistleblowers - many gay - have said that Mermaids are effectively medicalising gender non conforming kids who would grow up to be gay, I think the issue is clear
No mention of the childs suicide atempt. Suicide attempts at 32-50 % of Transgender people . Does this concern you &why/why doesnt it ?
