The trans debate

[Dunners]

There's also precedent for the creation and development of law and a law-based society to exist in conjunction with nonsense beliefs that do not hold up to any intellectual scrutiny. We still tiptoe around the issue of religion.

But, as Wes "man of the people" Streeting said in that clip I posted on the other thread: we're still figuring this out. And while we may not end up with a solution that anyone loves, hopefully it can be one that we live with.

Although, judging by the reaction of the woke mob, you'd be forgiven for thinking he'd recited Mein Kampf.

He's still a khunt though. Right?

I'm beginning to warm to him, so he must be.

[Max B Gold]

There's also precedent for the creation and development of law and a law-based society to exist in conjunction with nonsense beliefs that do not hold up to any intellectual scrutiny. We still tiptoe around the issue of religion.

But, as Wes "man of the people" Streeting said in that clip I posted on the other thread: we're still figuring this out. And while we may not end up with a solution that anyone loves, hopefully it can be one that we live with.

Although, judging by the reaction of the woke mob, you'd be forgiven for thinking he'd recited Mein Kampf.

He's still a khunt though. Right?

I'm beginning to warm to him, so he must be.

A friend of my sons interned for him and he's a bit in the Labour Solidarity mould and even he was shocked by how much of a Red Tory Blairite tw*t he was.

[greyhound]

why the f..k men want to become woman is beyond me.
my other half has just had surgery on her eye
she has to rest. she got me running around like a
blue arse fly.

[Hutch]

Streeting's a slimy careerist, who fits media pundits' idea of what an electable, presentable politician should be like. Everyone else, less so.

[Long slender neck]

I see that Boris agrees with ceb now.

[CEB]

I see that Boris agrees with ceb now.

Boris Johnson doesn’t give a toss about the issue. He’s likely been briefed by someone who has correctly identified a very weak point in Labour’s politics that Labour are currently completely unable to engage with meaningfully, and where, due to Labour’s casual insistence that it’s a non-issue, the Tories have been handed on a plate a situation where they can show a demonstrable, tangible issue with a Labour position that Labour don’t even have the language to discuss (and where they even attempt to demonise people maintaining clarity of language)

Like it or not, the “TERFs” have dragged this issue into the mainstream after the proposed GRA reforms, and Labour don’t know how to discuss it. It’s almost exactly as if suddenly PETA’s demands were treated not just as proportionate, but as beyond critique.

[Currywurst and Chips]

They need to get their act together before the next GE

Given women are their core vote and answering "It's complex and I don't know know how to" to the question "What is a woman" won't wash when voters will think my 5 year old could answer that

[CEB]

I knew that this issue would embarrass the left once the Tories cottoned on to it from the day that virtually all my leftie friends and acquaintances on Facebook all unfortunately forgot to post #dontbuythesun on the day The Sun put JK Rowling’s former abuser in their front page just after she wrote about trans issues and feminism, despite the fact that it would usually (rightly) be all over social media if their weather forecast was a degree off.

[Dunners]

The whole thing has done great for the sale of biscuits though.

[CEB]

The whole thing has done great for the sale of biscuits though.

Yes, though I can’t open biscuits anymore, because of all the wear and tear on my knuckles from cracking them before replying on this thread

[Max B Gold]

I knew that this issue would embarrass the left once the Tories cottoned on to it from the day that virtually all my leftie friends and acquaintances on Facebook all unfortunately forgot to post #dontbuythesun on the day The Sun put JK Rowling’s former abuser in their front page just after she wrote about trans issues and feminism, despite the fact that it would usually (rightly) be all over social media if their weather forecast was a degree off.

The Tory political advantage is nullified when they do this

[CEB]

I knew that this issue would embarrass the left once the Tories cottoned on to it from the day that virtually all my leftie friends and acquaintances on Facebook all unfortunately forgot to post #dontbuythesun on the day The Sun put JK Rowling’s former abuser in their front page just after she wrote about trans issues and feminism, despite the fact that it would usually (rightly) be all over social media if their weather forecast was a degree off.

The Tory political advantage is nullified when they do this

Again, I’m afraid you, and dear old Philip Pullman, don’t understand the issue at hand. Please try to understand because you’re currently doing exactly the type of misunderstanding that handed the Tories this advantage. The specific issue at hand is what Boris Johnson was discussing. And he (or more correctly, his advisers) are right: there is not a direct equivalent between abhorrent conversion therapy aimed at repressing same sex attraction due to reasons of moral disgust, and disagreement about the “affirmation only” approach to treating young people with gender dysphoria (feel free to read the interim conclusions of the Cass report if you’d like to know more)

The whistleblowers at the Tavistock have overwhelmingly said that parents enforcing gendered norms onto (often gay) children is present in virtually all cases of children presenting with gender dysphoria; if you tell your male child that certain activities and interests are only for girls, and that child still likes that activity, but the parent still says “that’s not for boys”, and then a medical practitioner says “some children are told they’re boys at birth, but really they are girls”, do you see anything worth exploring?

Do you see anything worth exploring in the massive rise in young women (again - often same sex attracted) presenting with gender dysphoria in recent years, often with other mental health co-morbidities?

Bear in mind that the “affirmation approach” is the one that can lead to surgical intervention and a lifetime of medicalisation and hormonal treatment. And please don’t be dismissive, as when you’ve seen a young woman with serious mental health issues, a track record of eating disorders and self harm be cheered on by peers (who weren’t interested before she came out as trans) when she fundraises to have healthy breasts removed, while she looks pale, unhealthy, desperately unhappy but is lovebombed by activists. (And if you read the accounts of young women who desisted after identifying as trans) you will perhaps realise that this really isn’t a simple equivalent to “gay conversion therapy”

[Currywurst and Chips]

Max knows that deep down but since he discovered Twitter his opinions are in line with the #JC4PM hive mind

[Long slender neck]

ceb- are you saying that perhaps its trans activists who are actually doing the conversion therapy, on children (and others) who may actually be gay? Instead they're steered down a path leading to surgery etc?

[CEB]

ceb- are you saying that perhaps its trans activists who are actually doing the conversion therapy, on children (and others) who may actually be gay? Instead they're steered down a path leading to surgery etc?

I think using language like “conversion therapy” only helps solidify an incorrect idea that trans rights and gay rights movements are directly analogous.

What I do think is that if you normalise (and impose on others through law) the idea of an innate gender identity that we all have - which is demonstrably what mainstream trans activism believes - then there needs to be scrutiny of how that belief intersects with the idea that it’s OK for children of either sex to have any interests, personalities, and to be gender conforming and for that to be a good thing in of itself, and reinforcing the progressive notion that our sex doesn’t define anything other than what type of body we have.

The ultimate question here is whether you believe this:

“A girl is a child with a female body and any personality”

Or this

“A girl is a child with a female personality and any body”


Above, Hutch mentions slimy careerist Wes Streeting. I agree with Hutch that Wes Streeting is a slimy careerist. I wonder what Hutch thought slimy extremists would do when intelligent, progressive people like him pretended that there was no rational, compassionate, reasonable objection to trans rights activism? Like many on the left he pretended it wasn’t an issue because saying nothing was most expedient, and effectively shoved up to allow slimy careerists like Wes Streeting to be able to say rational things and have that simple statement seem much braver than it should be, because many on the left have treated it as taboo.

I do wonder why people are now surprised that “I’m not obliged to have an opinion on this, and it’s quite aggressive to expect people to have an opinion on it” has led to opportunists spotting the opportunity when some people couldn’t be arsed with the hassle of ensuring they were confident on points they are currently unsure of…

[Max B Gold]

Max knows that deep down but since he discovered Twitter his opinions are in line with the #JC4PM hive mind

?? I've been on twitter since 2009 and no I don't subscribe to the JC crew hive mind. Keep going.

[Max B Gold]

I knew that this issue would embarrass the left once the Tories cottoned on to it from the day that virtually all my leftie friends and acquaintances on Facebook all unfortunately forgot to post #dontbuythesun on the day The Sun put JK Rowling’s former abuser in their front page just after she wrote about trans issues and feminism, despite the fact that it would usually (rightly) be all over social media if their weather forecast was a degree off.

The Tory political advantage is nullified when they do this

Again, I’m afraid you, and dear old Philip Pullman, don’t understand the issue at hand. Please try to understand because you’re currently doing exactly the type of misunderstanding that handed the Tories this advantage. The specific issue at hand is what Boris Johnson was discussing. And he (or more correctly, his advisers) are right: there is not a direct equivalent between abhorrent conversion therapy aimed at repressing same sex attraction due to reasons of moral disgust, and disagreement about the “affirmation only” approach to treating young people with gender dysphoria (feel free to read the interim conclusions of the Cass report if you’d like to know more)

The whistleblowers at the Tavistock have overwhelmingly said that parents enforcing gendered norms onto (often gay) children is present in virtually all cases of children presenting with gender dysphoria; if you tell your male child that certain activities and interests are only for girls, and that child still likes that activity, but the parent still says “that’s not for boys”, and then a medical practitioner says “some children are told they’re boys at birth, but really they are girls”, do you see anything worth exploring?

Do you see anything worth exploring in the massive rise in young women (again - often same sex attracted) presenting with gender dysphoria in recent years, often with other mental health co-morbidities?

Bear in mind that the “affirmation approach” is the one that can lead to surgical intervention and a lifetime of medicalisation and hormonal treatment. And please don’t be dismissive, as when you’ve seen a young woman with serious mental health issues, a track record of eating disorders and self harm be cheered on by peers (who weren’t interested before she came out as trans) when she fundraises to have healthy breasts removed, while she looks pale, unhealthy, desperately unhappy but is lovebombed by activists. (And if you read the accounts of young women who desisted after identifying as trans) you will perhaps realise that this really isn’t a simple equivalent to “gay conversion therapy”

Bollix. I've set him off again.

[Currywurst and Chips]

Max knows that deep down but since he discovered Twitter his opinions are in line with the #JC4PM hive mind

?? I've been on twitter since 2009 and no I don't subscribe to the JC crew hive mind. Keep going.

Mate, ain't nobody still retweeting Richard Burgon in 2022 unless they're JC stans

[Max B Gold]

Max knows that deep down but since he discovered Twitter his opinions are in line with the #JC4PM hive mind

?? I've been on twitter since 2009 and no I don't subscribe to the JC crew hive mind. Keep going.

Mate, ain't nobody still retweeting Richard Burgon in 2022 unless they're JC stans

Not everything he says is wrong.

[Max B Gold]

ceb- are you saying that perhaps its trans activists who are actually doing the conversion therapy, on children (and others) who may actually be gay? Instead they're steered down a path leading to surgery etc?

No. Its a bigger conspiracy than that and involves the participation of medical experts too.

[oxo]

I see that Boris agrees with ceb now.

Boris Johnson doesn’t give a toss about the issue.

Finally, something we can all agree on.

Interesting that he's chosen to speak up about this on the day that National Insurance has gone up, after explicitly promising in his last manifesto that he wouldn't raise National Insurance.

[Max B Gold]

This was a very informative analysis of the issue being free from abusive personal insults. However, it doesn't address my concern about how the sex based extremists are creating a hate filled transphobic agenda.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nition-act

[Dextercoindexter]

This was a very informative analysis of the issue being free from abusive personal insults. However, it doesn't address my concern about how the sex based extremists are creating a hate filled transphobic agenda.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nition-act

What on Earth is a ‘sex based extremist’ please?

I must have lived a sheltered life. Sounds a better cause than the Donkey Sanctuary. Can anyone join or is it strictly invite only I wonder?

[PutneyO]

Perhaps we should ask Martin Ling what he thinks, after all, he's an old woman.

[Long slender neck]

Perhaps we should ask Martin Ling what he thinks, after all, he's an old woman.