The trans debate

[StillSpike]

Wouldn't it be easier if, instead of having Women's and Men's classifications, sports just had Female and Open. The Open classification is there for anyone to compete in (based on merit, of course) the female for biological females. Women who can't make the female criteria are still able to compete in the Open classification, if they're good enough.

[CEB]

Wouldn't it be easier if, instead of having Women's and Men's classifications, sports just had Female and Open. The Open classification is there for anyone to compete in (based on merit, of course) the female for biological females. Women who can't make the female criteria are still able to compete in the Open classification, if they're good enough.

It absolutely would. But that’s to misunderstand what is happening. The reason William Thomas wants to compete in the female category is for validation of his claimed gender identity. The open category wouldn’t do that, and so trans activism won’t support it. In every aspect, what underpins trans activism is that identity is what determines gender and sex- the body is irrelevant. As far as mainstream trans activism is concerned, in the category “people with the gender identity ‘woman’”, Thomas has a natural advantage that is equivalent to any woman being naturally strong, or tall. Even suppressing testosterone is something trans activism takes issue with, because they don’t believe any steps need to be taken for someone to be as much a woman as any female human

[StillSpike]

Able-bodied athletes would be able to clean up at the Paralympics

[Currywurst and Chips]

South Park did an episode on that too

[greyhound]

if someone feels there in the wrong body
then do what ever makes them happy. but when it comes to sport
do what disabled athletes do have separate sports.
that has to be more fairer.

[Mick McQuaid]

Wouldn't it be easier if, instead of having Women's and Men's classifications, sports just had Female and Open. The Open classification is there for anyone to compete in (based on merit, of course) the female for biological females. Women who can't make the female criteria are still able to compete in the Open classification, if they're good enough.

It absolutely would. But that’s to misunderstand what is happening. The reason William Thomas wants to compete in the female category is for validation of his claimed gender identity. The open category wouldn’t do that, and so trans activism won’t support it. In every aspect, what underpins trans activism is that identity is what determines gender and sex- the body is irrelevant. As far as mainstream trans activism is concerned, in the category “people with the gender identity ‘woman’”, Thomas has a natural advantage that is equivalent to any woman being naturally strong, or tall. Even suppressing testosterone is something trans activism takes issue with, because they don’t believe any steps need to be taken for someone to be as much a woman as any female human

Can't be arsed to engage in this 'debate' but calling someone by their preferred name is just basic politeness.

[Mistadobalina]

Wouldn't it be easier if, instead of having Women's and Men's classifications, sports just had Female and Open. The Open classification is there for anyone to compete in (based on merit, of course) the female for biological females. Women who can't make the female criteria are still able to compete in the Open classification, if they're good enough.

It absolutely would. But that’s to misunderstand what is happening. The reason William Thomas wants to compete in the female category is for validation of his claimed gender identity. The open category wouldn’t do that, and so trans activism won’t support it. In every aspect, what underpins trans activism is that identity is what determines gender and sex- the body is irrelevant. As far as mainstream trans activism is concerned, in the category “people with the gender identity ‘woman’”, Thomas has a natural advantage that is equivalent to any woman being naturally strong, or tall. Even suppressing testosterone is something trans activism takes issue with, because they don’t believe any steps need to be taken for someone to be as much a woman as any female human

Can't be arsed to engage in this 'debate' but calling someone by their preferred name is just basic politeness.

One thing to call out the behaviour of a small group of activists, another to start being an arse about trans women who have nothing to do with that activism.

I don't really agree with trans women competing in female sports, but also seems like common decency to not do that very gammon thing of calling trans women 'him' for some kind of sh*t offense value.

[greyhound]

https://uk.yahoo.com/sports/news/injust ... 54170.html

a fine looking woman.

the one on the right.

[Beradogs]

It absolutely would. But that’s to misunderstand what is happening. The reason William Thomas wants to compete in the female category is for validation of his claimed gender identity. The open category wouldn’t do that, and so trans activism won’t support it. In every aspect, what underpins trans activism is that identity is what determines gender and sex- the body is irrelevant. As far as mainstream trans activism is concerned, in the category “people with the gender identity ‘woman’”, Thomas has a natural advantage that is equivalent to any woman being naturally strong, or tall. Even suppressing testosterone is something trans activism takes issue with, because they don’t believe any steps need to be taken for someone to be as much a woman as any female human

Can't be arsed to engage in this 'debate' but calling someone by their preferred name is just basic politeness.

One thing to call out the behaviour of a small group of activists, another to start being an arse about trans women who have nothing to do with that activism.

I don't really agree with trans women competing in female sports, but also seems like common decency to not do that very gammon thing of calling trans women 'him' for some kind of sh*t offense value.

As opposed to calling someone gammon for some kind of sh1t offensive value.

[CEB]

Wouldn't it be easier if, instead of having Women's and Men's classifications, sports just had Female and Open. The Open classification is there for anyone to compete in (based on merit, of course) the female for biological females. Women who can't make the female criteria are still able to compete in the Open classification, if they're good enough.

It absolutely would. But that’s to misunderstand what is happening. The reason William Thomas wants to compete in the female category is for validation of his claimed gender identity. The open category wouldn’t do that, and so trans activism won’t support it. In every aspect, what underpins trans activism is that identity is what determines gender and sex- the body is irrelevant. As far as mainstream trans activism is concerned, in the category “people with the gender identity ‘woman’”, Thomas has a natural advantage that is equivalent to any woman being naturally strong, or tall. Even suppressing testosterone is something trans activism takes issue with, because they don’t believe any steps need to be taken for someone to be as much a woman as any female human

Can't be arsed to engage in this 'debate' but calling someone by their preferred name is just basic politeness.

Hi Brendan (I’m assuming it’s you, though disappointed that you’d buy into such regressive bullshit) - you didn’t seem averse to getting into the “debate” on page 1, when you were being condescending to people you assumed didn’t know as much as you, so I’m surprised you’re averse to getting into the debate now that you’re potentially engaging with someone you’ve met in real life, who isn’t trolling, and who has clearly thought their position through. It’s almost as if you have nothing to say in defence of male people competing in womens sports aside from “be polite when talking about it”. Suffice to say that when I use politeness to refer to male people who believe they are women, it depends on context, and I’d be happy to discuss further if you refrain from intellectual cowardliness and acknowledge that male people in woman’s sport absolutely *is* a debate, no scare quotation marks necessary.


Hi Mistodobalina: William “Lia” Thomas is a direct beneficiary of the form of activism that says that a male person who declares himself to be a woman should be considered a woman in all circumstances. You’re welcome to say “that makes you look like a gammon” if you like, but I can assure you that you have zero good arguments as to why his maleness isn’t pertinent to the conversation and the context, and so I reserve the right. I would probably draw my line here: I would have previously been willing, as a courtesy (and outside of a context where people like you seek to make it unsayable), to write “Lia Thomas withdrew from contention for the female category because she recognised that while she has a strong sense that her gender identity isn’t that of a man, she recognises that she isn’t female”
(I say courtesy because I’ve not yet heard a not sexist explanation of what a male person means when he says “I am a woman” and so alli accept is that dysphoria exists, not that this, in any tangible way, makes a male person a woman. Again, feel free to put me right on any points I’m unsure of.
However, when William Thomas is “impolite” by entering a female sporting category despite being male, I will reserve the right to use language that recognises that “sex”, not “gender identity” is relevant: the male person William Thomas won a race yesterday against female people.
Feel free to argue why that’s OK, using whatever language is most appropriate. Or, if you’re not engaged in the “debate” and just have a sense that male people don’t belong in female sport (well done, welcome to reality), perhaps recognise that linguistics has played a big part in getting us here, and that’s why some of us now don’t go along with prescribed pronouns.


Beradogs was - for once - absolutely right the other day. And while I’m the (willing) recipient, it is hilarious how quickly people like you will use the word “gammon” to describe the person who was *the* most indignant, crusading, forensically debating leftie on the board as soon as he doesn’t agree with you - has it occurred to you that maybe I just know more about this than you do?


Give me one good reason to call the male winner of yesterday’s swimming competition a woman. And it better be better than “it’s not polite” if you don’t want me to laugh at the misogyny of expecting people to be polite about men violating women’s spaces.

[Currywurst and Chips]

I love it when the just be kind and polite it's not much to ask crowd can't help themselves but do the opposite in the same post.

Mugs

[CEB]

I love it when the just be kind and polite it's not much to ask crowd can't help themselves but do the opposite in the same post.

Mugs

It’s IMPERATIVE that you do not violate anyone’s sense of self. PS, I think you are a GAMMON.

[CEB]

I wonder what the total would be if we totted up how many times the heterosexual male people on this thread who have said variations of “I don’t think it’s reasonable to see male transwomen as male” have used that as an underpinning part of their dating strategy as well as their social media “debating”strategy?

It seems that the swimming pool during an elite female swimming competition is seen as the right place for a male who identifies as a woman by some, I wonder how many heterosexual men on here have treated their bed the same way they expect women to treat swimming competitions?

[CEB]

“Why are you being impolite and calling this person “he”?”

Er…

(And f*** yes. I will use blunt tools like pictures like this. This is a male, competing with women. Argue for it rather than asserting that we should pretend that’s not what it is. )

[Long slender neck]

Thought I'd read recently that they'd expunged all of their records?

[CEB]

Thought I'd read recently that they'd expunged all of their records?

Of the straight men on this thread displaying superficial adherence to pretending they think males are literally women? Damn, without the records, all we have is MB Gold’s postie, and SHE was only a figment of zeir imagination

[Loyal_Supporter]

if someone feels there in the wrong body
then do what ever makes them happy. but when it comes to sport
do what disabled athletes do have separate sports.
that has to be more fairer.

No it would not make it fairer. The hormones transgender people take (male to female) reduce strength.

[Loyal_Supporter]

“Why are you being impolite and calling this person “he”?”

Er…

(And f*** yes. I will use blunt tools like pictures like this. This is a male, competing with women. Argue for it rather than asserting that we should pretend that’s not what it is. )

Wrong. If she is taking hormones it brings the body to the female way of working (strength for example). Dont talk about things you don't know.

[Dunners]

I hear the sound of Keef cracking his knuckles, as he prepares to activate the keyboard.

[CEB]

“Why are you being impolite and calling this person “he”?”

Er…

(And f*** yes. I will use blunt tools like pictures like this. This is a male, competing with women. Argue for it rather than asserting that we should pretend that’s not what it is. )

Wrong. If she is taking hormones it brings the body to the female way of working (strength for example). Dont talk about things you don't know.

Feel free to elaborate on what you mean by “the female way of working (strength for example)”

As you do so, be sure to explain how you believe William Thomas has successfully calibrated his…er…. let’s call it “strength and speed mitigation” to “female” from “male”, when it has, as *the* inherent and crucial issue here, seen him…. er… go from the 775th fastest man to the fastest woman.

Do you think that a woman is just a less strong man?

Interesting.

If I were to put a speed limiter on a car so that it could do 100 metres in 9 seconds exactly, what would I be measuring if that car took part in the Olympics 100 metres?

God, it really is boring addressing quite how mind numbingly dull the arguments in favour of men in womens sports actually are.

I’m also going to go out on a limb and suggest that loyal supporter hasn’t ever invited/welcomed male people into spaces he reserves for female people.

[CEB]

Imagine being so contemptuous of women’s sports that you can type “males can take supplements to reduce their abilities so that their advantage is not quite so apparent” and think you’ve got a good point.

It was a blatantly stupid point when Gavin (sorry Mick McQuaid, please don’t be upset by my gross misgendering!!!) Hubbard turned up at the Olympics and was mediocre enough to be poo poo at weightlifting even when several years past his best and competing as a woman, but it’s embarrassing to see it when a man has literally won a race against female swimmers without even kicking his legs.

I dare anyone on this board to try to actually argue the substance with me.

[CEB]

So how do you explain the explosion in referrals to this clinic? Believe it's gone from double figures to four figures a year.

I would think mainly that in general people are becoming much more accepting that it's an issue that needs support and the idea and the idea that it's best to tell your kid to shiut up and sign them up for a rugby club is slowly on the decline.

Also, if you have any understanding of maths you'd consider the relevance of exponential growth from such a low starting point and look at prevalence instead, which shows that 0.01% of the child population are referred to a gender identity service.

You’ve got this issue completely the wrong way round.

Parents that tell their male child “man up”, and send then down the rugby club because they think their boy is showing dangerous signs of not being a stereotypically masculine bumhole, are the parents who will foster dysphoria in their child, because they’ve *created the entire concept of what it means to be male or masculine for their child* - therefore, creating a misalignment between what they think they should be behaving like, and what their parents have told them is appropriate for their sex, and what they actually are interested in: if a seven year old boy says “I think I’m a girl”, what is that person saying about himself? What insight does that child have into what *any* other human experiences? All they have is what they’ve experienced as a human with a sex, in a context where there are expectations based on that sex.


However, parents that say to their kid “there’s no right or wrong way to be a boy - you *are* a boy, but all that says about you is what body you have, not what you have to like or do” will not be sending their kid down the rugby club p they will be supporting their child to have a personality.

The only possible way that a male child can conclude “I am not actually a male child” is if they have been conditioned to believe that there is a wrong way of being a male child, which makes that child not male.

Think your thoughts through to the end Brendan. Don’t be a massive bell end regurgitating half digested poo poo that you’re expected to parrot,

[greyhound]

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrLEoP ... OyT8VMTvA-


so even after 3 years trans are as strong as an OX.

[Max Fowler]

My local Working men's club where i sometimes help ou behind the bar has variety shows with gays lesbians and transvestites on stage , call me old fashioned but i find it all quite distastefull

These are the people you’re standing with, keef.

[Story of O]

How? Completely different viewpoint, CEB does not find anything distasteful.