Uber Drivers are real people - Court Rules

[StillSpike]

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... 1613729680

So, that's a bit of a hole in the quasi-self-employed trick to get around paying employees basic benefits. I think that's going to have ramifications elsewhere.

[Long slender neck]

Wont be an issue when they're replaced with robots.

[Currywurst and Chips]

Whilst this the correct decision, I bet a few of them will be pis*ed off they can't cream in all the tax write offs being self employed allows you.

Hopefully it leads to stricter enforcement/greater oversight of the Deliveroo/Uber Eats riders which is a scandal.

[StillSpike]

That's probably true, come to think about it. Maybe they've got enough market penetration now, and this will be seen as an unpleasant extra cost but only for a short while. The backdated costs are likely to be pretty hefty though.

I think there's other parts of the "gig-economy" that will be harder to automate and those companies will need to treat their employees as such.

[BiggsyMalone]

Whilst this the correct decision, I bet a few of them will be pis*ed off they can't cream in all the tax write offs being self employed allows you.

Hopefully it leads to stricter enforcement/greater oversight of the Deliveroo/Uber Eats riders which is a scandal.

They can always become black cab drivers and not declare all of their income

[tuffers#1]

Wont be an issue when they're replaced with robots.

I didnt know Balck.Cab Drivers were Robots .
They do talk some utter sh*te though so not suprising really

[Oiram]

Whilst this the correct decision, I bet a few of them will be pis*ed off they can't cream in all the tax write offs being self employed allows you.

Hopefully it leads to stricter enforcement/greater oversight of the Deliveroo/Uber Eats riders which is a scandal.

They can always become black cab drivers and not declare all of their income

Such generalisation and assumption.

[Currywurst and Chips]

Whilst this the correct decision, I bet a few of them will be pis*ed off they can't cream in all the tax write offs being self employed allows you.

Hopefully it leads to stricter enforcement/greater oversight of the Deliveroo/Uber Eats riders which is a scandal.

They can always become black cab drivers and not declare all of their income

Such generalisation and assumption.

Exactly Charlie

[LittleMate]

Whilst this the correct decision, I bet a few of them will be pis*ed off they can't cream in all the tax write offs being self employed allows you.

Hopefully it leads to stricter enforcement/greater oversight of the Deliveroo/Uber Eats riders which is a scandal.

They can always become black cab drivers and not declare all of their income

This is becoming harder and harder to do because electronic payment methods. I'm sure that some cash payments still get absorbed out of the tax system, but the tax man is even getting cute in checking fuel costs v fees earned and also miles on the taxi speedo's.

[Oiram]

Whilst this the correct decision, I bet a few of them will be pis*ed off they can't cream in all the tax write offs being self employed allows you.

Hopefully it leads to stricter enforcement/greater oversight of the Deliveroo/Uber Eats riders which is a scandal.

They can always become black cab drivers and not declare all of their income

This is becoming harder and harder to do because electronic payment methods. I'm sure that some cash payments still get absorbed out of the tax system, but the tax man is even getting cute in checking fuel costs v fees earned and also miles on the taxi speedo's.

Correct. HMRC have their sights on bigger fish to fry especially when in the past year the black cab industry is at rock bottom, hardly world the the effort when there has been practically a collapse of trade.

[o-no]

What's unfortunate about this is that there are going to be some people who much prefered the self-employed option, which is now being removed from them due to this action.

The whole tax system seems to try to force workers into broad categories of employment that haven't changed in the last 50 years and ignores the gig-economy entirely.

[Thor]

I foresee that in the near future the government will realign self employed to be a mocked up version of PAYE. They will want to maximise the tax take, stop the potential for tax evasion and cash payments and reclaim some of the lost money that has escaped the “system”. We are moving towards a cashless society which is what the government really wants and this pandemic is kind of helping them towards achieving that.

[StillSpike]

I think if you work for one company, and they set out how, when and where you do your job, then you're employed. There's far too many companies, from Uber to delivery companies to service providers (e.g. engineers) who want to treat the people actually doing the work as employees in all respects except when it comes to employee benefits.

If you drive a van with the company logo on it, wear their uniform, work only for them, do what they say and when, and have little to no control over the pattern of your work, then you're not self-employed in my opinion, whatever it might say on the contract they made you sign.

It's a scam to place any risk of drop in demand on the workers, as well as to avoid holiday/sickness pay etc etc.

Disclosure - I'm "genuine" self employed, working through a Limited Company - I have multiple clients. We agree on the timings and manner of the work, I quote for and provide all the materials and workplace to do the work in. My clients don't have any exclusive rights to me - they can't say that I have to be at their beck and call, and they can't stipulate that I don't work for anyone else (although I do have to have NDA where I do work for clients who compete with each other) I advertise and promote my services and it's all my risk if there's no work to be done (like at the moment). I'm happy in that status, and am able to charge a rate to my clients that cover the downtime.

[Type high]

Wont be an issue when they're replaced with robots.

I didnt know Balck.Cab Drivers were Robots .
They do talk some utter sh*te though so not suprising really

Bit like you really

[mildandbitter]

I prefer Uber to black cabs. There you are.

[Stowaway]

I worked briefly for a company that made you register as “self-employed”, so they could pay you sh*t hourly rates and not have to bother with expensive nonsense like holidays, sick pay and employee’s rights. I lasted three months and it was the only job I’ve ever had where I did the whole “f*** you, f*** your job and f*** your company” before slinging my stuff on the floor and storming out.

The gig economy is a disgraceful scam, all of it. We’ve gone backwards regarding employment so much in the last 10 years.

[Thor]

I worked briefly for a company that made you register as “self-employed”, so they could pay you sh*t hourly rates and not have to bother with expensive nonsense like holidays, sick pay and employee’s rights. I lasted three months and it was the only job I’ve ever had where I did the whole “f*** you, f*** your job and f*** your company” before slinging my stuff on the floor and storming out.

The gig economy is a disgraceful scam, all of it. We’ve gone backwards regarding employment so much in the last 10 years.

What’s the solution then?

[Still wrong]

I worked briefly for a company that made you register as “self-employed”, so they could pay you sh*t hourly rates and not have to bother with expensive nonsense like holidays, sick pay and employee’s rights. I lasted three months and it was the only job I’ve ever had where I did the whole “f*** you, f*** your job and f*** your company” before slinging my stuff on the floor and storming out.

The gig economy is a disgraceful scam, all of it. We’ve gone backwards regarding employment so much in the last 10 years.

What’s the solution then?

My last job was self employed.
When the bloke originally suggested it he asked what sort of wage I was looking for.
I told I will email him a figure but it will include any holiday pay and the loss of employment rights.
I gave him the figure and surprisingly he agreed.
After 3 months he told me the taxman was on his back and could I sign him a form to confirm he was not my sole employer and basically lie. I said no and soon left after that.
He did actually make me a job offer but I turned him down because he was such a tosser.
When you’ve got a couple of Bob you can afford to do that.

[tuffers#1]

Wont be an issue when they're replaced with robots.

I didnt know Balck.Cab Drivers were Robots .
They do talk some utter sh*te though so not suprising really

Bit like you really

Ooooh get ewe !!

[Max B Gold]

I worked briefly for a company that made you register as “self-employed”, so they could pay you sh*t hourly rates and not have to bother with expensive nonsense like holidays, sick pay and employee’s rights. I lasted three months and it was the only job I’ve ever had where I did the whole “f*** you, f*** your job and f*** your company” before slinging my stuff on the floor and storming out.

The gig economy is a disgraceful scam, all of it. We’ve gone backwards regarding employment so much in the last 10 years.

I have a friend who works off shore in the middle of the sea. Recently he got a job but they made him set up a Limited company before they would take him on.

This was because he then had to self insure for risk in a risky business and take on the biggest cost of the "employer" or thete was no job.

Exploitation of workers by greedy capitalists continues.

[Stowaway]

I worked briefly for a company that made you register as “self-employed”, so they could pay you sh*t hourly rates and not have to bother with expensive nonsense like holidays, sick pay and employee’s rights. I lasted three months and it was the only job I’ve ever had where I did the whole “f*** you, f*** your job and f*** your company” before slinging my stuff on the floor and storming out.

The gig economy is a disgraceful scam, all of it. We’ve gone backwards regarding employment so much in the last 10 years.

What’s the solution then?

The solution? I’d have thought that was obvious. Pay your work staff a proper wage. Frankly, if you can’t afford to pay your staff properly, like a real employer with holiday, sick pay and a pension, then your business model is f*cked. If you can’t do that, then you don’t deserve to be in business.

I have a good friend who for years ran his own engineering company, and he paid his staff the same salary as himself, because he couldn’t see why he shouldn’t. They put in just as much work as he did, so he reasoned they deserved what he did.

[Max B Gold]

I worked briefly for a company that made you register as “self-employed”, so they could pay you sh*t hourly rates and not have to bother with expensive nonsense like holidays, sick pay and employee’s rights. I lasted three months and it was the only job I’ve ever had where I did the whole “f*** you, f*** your job and f*** your company” before slinging my stuff on the floor and storming out.

The gig economy is a disgraceful scam, all of it. We’ve gone backwards regarding employment so much in the last 10 years.

What’s the solution then?

The solution? I’d have thought that was obvious. Pay your work staff a proper wage. Frankly, if you can’t afford to pay your staff properly, like a real employer with holiday, sick pay and a pension, then your business model is f*cked. If you can’t do that, then you don’t deserve to be in business.

I have a good friend who for years ran his own engineering company, and he paid his staff the same salary as himself, because he couldn’t see why he shouldn’t. They put in just as much work as he did, so he reasoned they deserved what he did.

That isn't the solution

In your friends day he was the owner and employer and a fair man.

We are not in those times much of the gig economy exploitation arises from "offshore" funds paying to insert themselves into already existing economic relations by way of monopolistic technology platforms and paying workers peanuts.

Uber don't make a penny from every food delivery they do. They take a cut from the supplier. But if they continue to increase revenue in a hot market the hedge funds etc who have financed them will cash in when it lists. They will be squids in and will go onto the next exploitation project.

As for Uber and Macds. Here is the thing.
It's a franchise business sworn to produce the same grub worldwide. What's to stop Uber buying franchises and supplying it from an industrial estate?

[LittleMate]

Self employment is a double edged sword, but two things would help even up inequalities. The first is to deduct tax at source - this would stop the black economy. The second is to introduce a tax on companies that pay monies to the self-employed, sole traders (and partnerships) that was the equivalent of paying employers NI contributions. This tax would take away a fair bit of the incentives that companies receive in engaging self employed people.

If the government wanted to go the whole hog then they should make home improvements tax deductible but only when the homeowner could "prove" the payment went to a registered self-employed person or company. This would then encourage homeowners to use tradesmen that were within the tax system.

[Currywurst and Chips]

Imagine reform of self employed rules and a NI hike will be one of the main ways the last 12 months is paid for

Indeed Sunak was hinting at this and the IFS have suggested it

[StillSpike]

Better to do away with NI and include it all in income tax (i.e. increase income tax). That way earning through PAYE and earning through dividends in your own company (or anyone else's) would be taxed the same.