Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2024 4:06 pm

Mick McQuaid wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2024 3:38 pm CEB, i suppose fundamentally i just dont actually care whether someone is 'actually male'. I just don't presume i knw better than someone's own sense of self

Don’t you see how this can be an issue, can be abused by bad faith actors or children easily influenced?

I hesitate to call you a f*cking dolt

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:16 am What is a TERF? Genuine question. Do you consider yourself a TERF?

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:18 am

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2024 4:06 pm

Mick McQuaid wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2024 3:38 pm CEB, i suppose fundamentally i just dont actually care whether someone is 'actually male'. I just don't presume i knw better than someone's own sense of self

Don’t you see how this can be an issue, can be abused by bad faith actors or children easily influenced?

I hesitate to call you a f*cking dolt

As an example...You might not agree with MM's point but outside of this thread I'm not sure saying 'I dont presume i know better than someones own sense of self' wouldn't seem controversial. But...name calling to close down 'debate'

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:22 am The acronym stands for Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist, and refers specifically to radical feminists who wish to exclude male people who claim to be women, from their feminist organising, and more broadly from spaces where sex matters.

Colloquially, it is used as a synonym for “transphobe” directed at anyone who criticises trans activists, and after much throwing around of it by trans activists, many people critical of trans activism have semi ironically adopted it.

So no, I’m not a TERF because I’m not a radical feminist, though I have used it as ironic short hand.

You are a terf in the same way that I am (though less strident) - the difference with you is that you haven’t put your moderate views to a trans person and seen how they’re received. Looking forward to when you do!

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:25 am And sissy porn...?

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:25 am

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:22 am The acronym stands for Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist, and refers specifically to radical feminists who wish to exclude male people who claim to be women, from their feminist organising, and more broadly from spaces where sex matters.

Colloquially, it is used as a synonym for “transphobe” directed at anyone who criticises trans activists, and after much throwing around of it by trans activists, many people critical of trans activism have semi ironically adopted it.

So no, I’m not a TERF because I’m not a radical feminist, though I have used it as ironic short hand.

You are a terf in the same way that I am (though less strident) - the difference with you is that you haven’t put your moderate views to a trans person and seen how they’re received. Looking forward to when you do!

Probably am a moderate TERF then.

What happened when you put it to a trans person?

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:25 am And sissy porn...?

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:25 am

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:18 am

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2024 4:06 pm

Don’t you see how this can be an issue, can be abused by bad faith actors or children easily influenced?

I hesitate to call you a f*cking dolt

As an example...You might not agree with MM's point but outside of this thread I'm not sure saying 'I dont presume i know better than someones own sense of self' wouldn't seem controversial. But...name calling to close down 'debate'

1: Your sense of self isn’t the determining factor of whether one is male or female.

2: a male person claiming that his sense of self is that of a female person is actually claiming to know something about both himself, AND about female people, AND about all male people, that he couldn’t possibly know; that he shares something innate with all female people that he does not share with male people. It is perfectly reasonable to say of a deluded male “your sense of self is something you have the right to experience, but you don’t have the right to be believed that your sense of self recategorises you as female”

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:27 am

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:25 am

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:22 am The acronym stands for Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist, and refers specifically to radical feminists who wish to exclude male people who claim to be women, from their feminist organising, and more broadly from spaces where sex matters.

Colloquially, it is used as a synonym for “transphobe” directed at anyone who criticises trans activists, and after much throwing around of it by trans activists, many people critical of trans activism have semi ironically adopted it.

So no, I’m not a TERF because I’m not a radical feminist, though I have used it as ironic short hand.

You are a terf in the same way that I am (though less strident) - the difference with you is that you haven’t put your moderate views to a trans person and seen how they’re received. Looking forward to when you do!

Probably am a moderate TERF then.

What happened when you put it to a trans person?

Some of the views you’ve expressed here would see you accused of wanting trans people to die

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:32 am

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:25 am

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:18 am
As an example...You might not agree with MM's point but outside of this thread I'm not sure saying 'I dont presume i know better than someones own sense of self' wouldn't seem controversial. But...name calling to close down 'debate'

1: Your sense of self isn’t the determining factor of whether one is male or female.

2: a male person claiming that his sense of self is that of a female person is actually claiming to know something about both himself, AND about female people, AND about all male people, that he couldn’t possibly know; that he shares something innate with all female people that he does not share with male people. It is perfectly reasonable to say of a deluded male “your sense of self is something you have the right to experience, but you don’t have the right to be believed that your sense of self recategorises you as female”

You misunderstand...I'm not rejecting the point. I'm making a point that the way things are discussed in this thread aren't conducive to a sensible debate. Which is why I wonder your sincerity at being open for your mind to be changed.

Even though you are all the way in on this topic, surely you can understand that your style of posting isn't going to achieve any of the debate you say you strive for?

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:33 am

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:27 am

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:25 am

Probably am a moderate TERF then.

What happened when you put it to a trans person?

Some of the views you’ve expressed here would see you accused of wanting trans people to die

And your response?

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:35 am

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:32 am

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:25 am

1: Your sense of self isn’t the determining factor of whether one is male or female.

2: a male person claiming that his sense of self is that of a female person is actually claiming to know something about both himself, AND about female people, AND about all male people, that he couldn’t possibly know; that he shares something innate with all female people that he does not share with male people. It is perfectly reasonable to say of a deluded male “your sense of self is something you have the right to experience, but you don’t have the right to be believed that your sense of self recategorises you as female”

You misunderstand...I'm not rejecting the point. I'm making a point that the way things are discussed in this thread aren't conducive to a sensible debate. Which is why I wonder your sincerity at being open for your mind to be changed.

Even though you are all the way in on this topic, surely you can understand that your style of posting isn't going to achieve any of the debate you say you strive for?

I am 100% comfortable with the posts I make on this thread, and believe that I’ve treated Max’yyy and MM’s responses to me with more credibility and respect than they warrant.

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:44 am One of my strongest opinions on this is to prevent children coming to harm by having brutal surgery and strange drug treatments.

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:39 am

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:33 am

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:27 am

Some of the views you’ve expressed here would see you accused of wanting trans people to die

And your response?

Well, with the young woman from my university course who accused me of wanting her to die after she saw me post on Facebook that male people shouldn’t be able to compete in the female category in the Olympics, I said “of course I don’t want you to die, I just believe that sex matters in some contexts and sport is one of them”, after which she blocked me, as is her right. She was crowd funding for a double mastectomy at the age of 22 last I heard

In 2017, Green presented a Ted Talk discussing the journey to get gender-affirming surgery for her eldest child at age 16 in Thailand

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:47 am

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:35 am

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:32 am
You misunderstand...I'm not rejecting the point. I'm making a point that the way things are discussed in this thread aren't conducive to a sensible debate. Which is why I wonder your sincerity at being open for your mind to be changed.

Even though you are all the way in on this topic, surely you can understand that your style of posting isn't going to achieve any of the debate you say you strive for?

I am 100% comfortable with the posts I make on this thread, and believe that I’ve treated Max’yyy and MM’s responses to me with more credibility and respect than they warrant.

Im in no doubt you are comfortable. But again, missing the point. Let me ask a question...

What is it you are trying to get out of this? Debate? Changing peoples minds? Putting people right on a few things that they were unsure of? Other?

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:47 am

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:35 am

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:32 am
You misunderstand...I'm not rejecting the point. I'm making a point that the way things are discussed in this thread aren't conducive to a sensible debate. Which is why I wonder your sincerity at being open for your mind to be changed.

Even though you are all the way in on this topic, surely you can understand that your style of posting isn't going to achieve any of the debate you say you strive for?

I am 100% comfortable with the posts I make on this thread, and believe that I’ve treated Max’yyy and MM’s responses to me with more credibility and respect than they warrant.

Im in no doubt you are comfortable. But again, missing the point. Let me ask a question...

What is it you are trying to get out of this? Debate? Changing peoples minds? Putting people right on a few things that they were unsure of? Other?

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:50 am Unless your mum runs Mermaids

In 2017, Green presented a Ted Talk discussing the journey to get gender-affirming surgery for her eldest child at age 16 in Thailand

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:49 am

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:39 am

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:33 am

And your response?

Well, with the young woman from my university course who accused me of wanting her to die after she saw me post on Facebook that male people shouldn’t be able to compete in the female category in the Olympics, I said “of course I don’t want you to die, I just believe that sex matters in some contexts and sport is one of them”, after which she blocked me, as is her right. She was crowd funding for a double mastectomy at the age of 22 last I heard

As if Facebook existed when you were at uni.

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:52 am

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:47 am

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:35 am


I am 100% comfortable with the posts I make on this thread, and believe that I’ve treated Max’yyy and MM’s responses to me with more credibility and respect than they warrant.

Im in no doubt you are comfortable. But again, missing the point. Let me ask a question...

What is it you are trying to get out of this? Debate? Changing peoples minds? Putting people right on a few things that they were unsure of? Other?

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:47 am

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:35 am


I am 100% comfortable with the posts I make on this thread, and believe that I’ve treated Max’yyy and MM’s responses to me with more credibility and respect than they warrant.

Im in no doubt you are comfortable. But again, missing the point. Let me ask a question...

What is it you are trying to get out of this? Debate? Changing peoples minds? Putting people right on a few things that they were unsure of? Other?

I’m posting informed, clear thinking on various aspects of the trans debate for anyone interested to hear them. You may have missed it, but in amongst the arguing (where usually my biggest bugbear is lack of engagement with the substance of my points - you’re as guilty as anyone there), there’s actually been several boarders here (you included) who have found yourselves a bit more informed, and a bit more understanding of my position.

I genuinely do not give a f*** whether people like my posts or not, so I’m just posting my honest takes with clear language. If it aides your understanding, great, if you agree with me, great, if you want to ask me anything you’re very welcome to and I’ll answer you honestly and respectfully.

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:54 am

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:49 am

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:39 am


Well, with the young woman from my university course who accused me of wanting her to die after she saw me post on Facebook that male people shouldn’t be able to compete in the female category in the Olympics, I said “of course I don’t want you to die, I just believe that sex matters in some contexts and sport is one of them”, after which she blocked me, as is her right. She was crowd funding for a double mastectomy at the age of 22 last I heard

As if Facebook existed when you were at uni.

I did an art degree at 37