Independent Leyton Orient Forum

What constitutes a "Big club" is subjective but this is the conclusive list:

Top tier:

1. Chelsea
2. Arsenal
3. Tottenham

Second tier:

4. West Ham
5. Palace
6. Fulham
7. QPR

Third tier:

8. Charlton
9. Brentford
10. Millwall
11. Wimbledon

Bottom tier:

12. Leyton Orient
13. Barnet
14. Dagenham & Redbridge

I think top and bottom are clear, 2nd / 3rd open to debate based on history and with Brentford joining the money league next season.

I think Wimbledon should be in the bottom tier, only ever survived on away support gate money.

Brentford, Wimbledon, Barnet & Dagenham are not London teams, they are in Greater London and don't have London in their address.

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:38 am What constitutes a "Big club" is subjective but this is the conclusive list:

Top tier:

1. Chelsea
2. Arsenal

Second tier:

3.Tottenhmam

Third Tier
4. West Ham

Fourth Tier:
5. Palace
6. Fulham
7. QPR

Fifth tier:

8. Charlton
9. Brentford
10. Millwall
11. Wimbledon

Bottom tier:

12. Leyton Orient
13. Barnet
14. Dagenham & Redbridge

Thats how i would rate it

LeighO wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:51 am I think top and bottom are clear, 2nd / 3rd open to debate based on history and with Brentford joining the money league next season.

Yes, was thinking there might be a small movement if Brentford win p/o final

one o in huntingdon wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:01 am I think Wimbledon should be in the bottom tier, only ever survived on away support gate money.

Fourteen seasons in the top tier within recent memory and an FA Cup win. As well as being in a higher division than those three and a new stadium about to open

The Mindsweep wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:07 am Brentford, Wimbledon, Barnet & Dagenham are not London teams, they are in Greater London and don't have London in their address.

Wimbledon will have a SW17 postcode in the upcoming season

First......Is the hierarchy based on league position, or on wealth?

Second...surely its a changeable thing, as teams position within the leagues is constantly changing eg, If Brentford win the play-off and get into the premier league, they must rise into at least second tier

Third...Wimbledon are a bottom tier club IMO. No history, no wealth. Remember, they are AFC Wimbledon, the club put together when the real Wimbledon, moved to MK, and changed their name. That club was the one that spent 14 seasons in the top tier.....not the crappy little team now residing in league 1

Only takes one or two seasons to greatly alter rankings

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:45 am First......Is the hierarchy based on league position, or on wealth?

Second...surely its a changeable thing, as teams position within the leagues is constantly changing eg, If Brentford win the play-off and get into the premier league, they must rise into at least second tier

Third...Wimbledon are a bottom tier club IMO. No history, no wealth. Remember, they are AFC Wimbledon, the club put together when the real Wimbledon, moved to MK, and changed their name. That club was the one that spent 14 seasons in the top tier.....not the crappy little team now residing in league 1

1. Mixture of everything

2. It's a snapshot in time

3. AFC Wimbledon is Wimbledon FC and their history. Also if they're a crappy little team in the league above Orient owned by fans and about to move in to a brand new stadium, I'd hate to hear how you describe Orient.

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:28 am

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:45 am First......Is the hierarchy based on league position, or on wealth?

Second...surely its a changeable thing, as teams position within the leagues is constantly changing eg, If Brentford win the play-off and get into the premier league, they must rise into at least second tier

Third...Wimbledon are a bottom tier club IMO. No history, no wealth. Remember, they are AFC Wimbledon, the club put together when the real Wimbledon, moved to MK, and changed their name. That club was the one that spent 14 seasons in the top tier.....not the crappy little team now residing in league 1

1. Mixture of everything

2. It's a snapshot in time

3. AFC Wimbledon is Wimbledon FC and their history. Also if they're a crappy little team in the league above Orient owned by fans and about to move in to a brand new stadium, I'd hate to hear how you describe Orient.

How can AFC Wimbledon just acquire another teams history?
Orient are a proper football club, with a rich history, and have about 115 years more of it than AFC Wimbledon

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:38 am What constitutes a "Big club" is subjective but this is the conclusive list:

Top tier:

1. Chelsea
2. Arsenal
3. Tottenham

Second tier:

4. West Ham
5. Palace
6. Fulham
7. QPR

Third tier:

8. Charlton
9. Brentford
10. Millwall
11. Wimbledon

Bottom tier:

12. Leyton Orient
13. Barnet
14. Dagenham & Redbridge

Not quite sure what your subjective point is.

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:58 am

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:28 am

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:45 am First......Is the hierarchy based on league position, or on wealth?

Second...surely its a changeable thing, as teams position within the leagues is constantly changing eg, If Brentford win the play-off and get into the premier league, they must rise into at least second tier

Third...Wimbledon are a bottom tier club IMO. No history, no wealth. Remember, they are AFC Wimbledon, the club put together when the real Wimbledon, moved to MK, and changed their name. That club was the one that spent 14 seasons in the top tier.....not the crappy little team now residing in league 1

1. Mixture of everything

2. It's a snapshot in time

3. AFC Wimbledon is Wimbledon FC and their history. Also if they're a crappy little team in the league above Orient owned by fans and about to move in to a brand new stadium, I'd hate to hear how you describe Orient.

How can AFC Wimbledon just acquire another teams history?
Orient are a proper football club, with a rich history, and have about 115 years more of it than AFC Wimbledon

Because the fans of Wimbledon FC formed AFC Wimbledon and still own it. It is a continuation of the previous club

That's not a controversial point unless you're from Milton Keynes

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:13 pm

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:38 am What constitutes a "Big club" is subjective but this is the conclusive list:

Top tier:

1. Chelsea
2. Arsenal
3. Tottenham

Second tier:

4. West Ham
5. Palace
6. Fulham
7. QPR

Third tier:

8. Charlton
9. Brentford
10. Millwall
11. Wimbledon

Bottom tier:

12. Leyton Orient
13. Barnet
14. Dagenham & Redbridge

Not quite sure what your subjective point is.

I've ranked football clubs in London

HTH

How sad is it by the way that Brentford who were one of our traditional rivals may be about to go in the premier league and we are still in division three/four. The free pass our directors/chairman/managers have had over the years must mean we are just about the most tolerant fans in the country. Based in a prime part of London and look at the state of us. Every time we find a talent we flog him for peanuts. Shocking really.

From top to bottom - groups

Global clubs
Chelsea
Arsenal
Tottenham

Big London Clubs
West Ham
Palace

Middle sized London Clubs
Fulham
QPR
Charlton
Millwall
Brentford

Bigger in the past London Clubs
Leyton Orient
Wimbledon

Always small London clubs
Barnet
Dagenham & Redbridge
Borehamwood

What strikes me about this post, is when I was growing up as a lad, during the 70s we got to be the longest serving second tier club.

Of all the teams listed, I’d only then have considered Arsenal/ Spurs/ West Ham/ Chelsea/ QPR as bigger than us (and we had a fair record against Chelsea when we met them), for in terms of division/ placing we were at least comparable with the rest, and often a division higher, the likes of Brentford never reached such dizzy heights for example, and Wimbledon (until late 70s)/ Barnet/ Dagenham had never been in the Football League.

I don’t disagree with the gist of the classification in this post now, but it highlights that we more than anyone seem to have fallen the most since the halcyon days of the 60s/ 70s, but as someone said it can only be a point in time, and drop us back to our Division 3 South days and we’d be back in the bottom but one category I guess, above those who hadn’t made the League.

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:38 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:13 pm

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:38 am What constitutes a "Big club" is subjective but this is the conclusive list:

Top tier:

1. Chelsea
2. Arsenal
3. Tottenham

Second tier:

4. West Ham
5. Palace
6. Fulham
7. QPR

Third tier:

8. Charlton
9. Brentford
10. Millwall
11. Wimbledon

Bottom tier:

12. Leyton Orient
13. Barnet
14. Dagenham & Redbridge

Not quite sure what your subjective point is.

I've ranked football clubs in London

HTH

Some achievement.

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:37 pm

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:38 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:13 pm

Not quite sure what your subjective point is.

I've ranked football clubs in London

HTH

Some achievement.

Beradogs wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:56 pm How sad is it by the way that Brentford who were one of our traditional rivals may be about to go in the premier league and we are still in division three/four. The free pass our directors/chairman/managers have had over the years must mean we are just about the most tolerant fans in the country. Based in a prime part of London and look at the state of us. Every time we find a talent we flog him for peanuts. Shocking really.

While I get the point you are trying to make, can't help but feel that's a slightly unfair dig at our current ownership, from the season Brentford went up (and we narrowly missed out) we've had the who 'he who shall not be named' era which meant that while Brentford have spent all that time in the same division, making adjustments to their team to improve, we on the other hard had to endure two relegations, asset stripping and came very close to liquidation.

Orient fans were hardly tolerant of that regime, and rightly so and then our new owners in that time they had to build an entire squad from scratch in the first season, stabilize and win the division in the second season, then in the third season deal with the untimely death of our title winning manager, get used to being back in a more professional league, then have the season cut short by COVID-19

I don't think they've had a free pass at all, in fact you could argue that in this last 12/13/14 months have been far more challenging than any owners in football would expect, yet they continue to try and find unique ways to bring stability and keep our club in business, so that tolerance, and even some sympathy is probably well deserved

Dont get me wrong, do I feel we should have performed better in L2 last season? Of course!
Would I like us to be linked with big name signings, and lots of them? Of course!

But when you whittle it down, I will be happy enough given the current climate, to just get back over to Brisbane Road with my kids and watch our beloved O's take the pitch and hopefully be more competitive than last season, I don't see us getting automatically promoted and i'd love us to be in or around the payoffs, but even top half for me would be a sign of progress..and i'd take that

Orient are one of the select group to have played in all four divisions and non-league :-( When I started to follow Orient they were established Division 2 and on a par with Fulham, and ahead of Charlton, Millwall, Brentford and Palace (who were in Division 3). Played all the global clubs and big clubs, bar Arsenal in the league.

Wimbledon is the new AFC Wimbledon rather than the old Dons, so arguably not bigger in the past, but probably with new stadium on the way likely to be bigger in the future. Also if Boreham Wood are in London, shouldn't Watford be? Not quite sure where London ends, but Hertfordshire isn't what I would consider London, even if parts are inside M25. Probably another middle sized club.

Also I see Palace as a middle sized London club. Never likely to finish in top half of table and doesn't look like it would take too much to send them back to the Championship.

Afraid my hierarchy is stuck in the 70's:-

Tottenham - Arsenal - West Ham - Chelsea

Crystal Palace - QPR

Orient - Fulham - Millwall - Charlton - Brentford - Watford - Wimbledon

Dagenham - Barnet

A fair amount of recency bias in some of these assessments. OK, it's reasonable to weight current status more highly than eg where clubs were in the 1950s, but club "size" must take account of long-term historical status, which includes not just trophies won, cup runs, and divisions played in, but average attendances.

For these reasons, I think Brentford are getting a bit too high in these tables, just because they've had a good last few years. Historically, they're no more successful than we are - and by many measures, somewhat less so. The last six seasons have seen us go on massively divergent paths, but that is only six seasons.

Top Tier (Absolute lads)

Orient
Palace
Arsenal

Second Tier (Meh)
Fulham
Tottenham
Wimbledon
Brentford
QPR
Watford

Third Tier (Wannabes)
Charlton
Dagenham
Chelsea

Forth Tier (Actual Scum)
Millwall
West Ham