Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Apologies if i missed it but I cannot see any comments on this board about the appalling article from Oliver Holt the other day when he was discussing racism and referenced Orient amongst the statistics. Did nobody else see it or am i the only one to be offended by it ?

It has been mentioned on the UEFA and racism thread.
Can I ask though why you are offended by it?

Nothing wrong with the article. Just making the point that its jobs for the boys and that black coaches rarely get a look in. He wasn't accusing Orient of being racist, but anyone with half a brain cell would understand that.

Don’t think I’ll be listening to lectures about racism from somebody who writes for The Mail. I treated it with the contempt and ridicule it deserved rather than getting offended by it.

As I posted on the other thread, how any BAME football journalists are there? Cosy club that.

Mikero

Just another journo jumping on the race themed bandwagon - but going on his tweet he was factually incorrect.

His Mum plays Emily Bishop in Coronation Street. This information I have provided will never, ever be useful to you. Apologies.

LittleMate wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:50 pm Just another journo jumping on the race themed bandwagon - but going on his tweet he was factually incorrect.

What was factually incorrect about it?

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:35 pm It has been mentioned on the UEFA and racism thread.
Can I ask though why you are offended by it?

Because it linked the theme of racism to my club. Holt has backtracked by saying that it is just a statement of facts. However, it would have been wiser to preface the reference with a comment about Orient's excellent long term stance on racism. Mind you i expect nothing better from the Daily Mail.

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:09 pm Nothing wrong with the article. Just making the point that its jobs for the boys and that black coaches rarely get a look in. He wasn't accusing Orient of being racist, but anyone with half a brain cell would understand that.

In that case, the second on your "Half a brain cell" list will be Leyton Orient Football Club who officially described it as "Damaging" and have requested "A correction".

I make them spot on.

coggos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:40 am

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:09 pm Nothing wrong with the article. Just making the point that its jobs for the boys and that black coaches rarely get a look in. He wasn't accusing Orient of being racist, but anyone with half a brain cell would understand that.

In that case, the second on your "Half a brain cell" list will be Leyton Orient Football Club who officially described it as "Damaging" and have requested "A correction".

I make them spot on.

The same club that trust Martin Ling to run footballing matters. What on earth do they want a correction for? They put Embleton in charge on an interim basis. He f*cked it off because it was sh*t and said he wasn't up to it. Then they got Fletcher. Fletcher didn't work out, so they put Embleton back in charge permanently. The article clearly gives a list of clubs and managers to show BAME managers aren't really getting a look in. Orient have decided that he's called them racist.

Absolute victim mentality without an understanding of what was written.

He also called out Grimsby who have actually had a Black Manager in recent history. As others have said it's a bit rich coming from someone who writes for the most xenophobic mainstream paper in the country.

I think the article was a bit better than the tweet which did seem to single out clubs with a better record than some, but whichever two clubs he'd named in the tweet there would have been a similar uproar, which is kind of the point: you can justify decisions on a singular basis but when you look at the whole picture it is clear that there is a cultural or institutional racism problem when it comes to managerial appointments.

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:06 am

coggos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:40 am

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:09 pm Nothing wrong with the article. Just making the point that its jobs for the boys and that black coaches rarely get a look in. He wasn't accusing Orient of being racist, but anyone with half a brain cell would understand that.

In that case, the second on your "Half a brain cell" list will be Leyton Orient Football Club who officially described it as "Damaging" and have requested "A correction".

I make them spot on.

The same club that trust Martin Ling to run footballing matters. What on earth do they want a correction for? They put Embleton in charge on an interim basis. He f*cked it off because it was sh*t and said he wasn't up to it. Then they got Fletcher. Fletcher didn't work out, so they put Embleton back in charge permanently. The article clearly gives a list of clubs and managers to show BAME managers aren't really getting a look in. Orient have decided that he's called them racist.

Absolute victim mentality without an understanding of what was written.

Sorry but you are missing the point here. You do not know me as a person but we all know Orient and it's corporate identity and it is hardly of a victim mentality.

If you are going to list facts about racism and then refer to a football club that is clearly not racist, it would be wise to reference the fact that the club is not racist. At best it is poor journalism.

coggos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:44 am

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:06 am

coggos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:40 am

In that case, the second on your "Half a brain cell" list will be Leyton Orient Football Club who officially described it as "Damaging" and have requested "A correction".

I make them spot on.

The same club that trust Martin Ling to run footballing matters. What on earth do they want a correction for? They put Embleton in charge on an interim basis. He f*cked it off because it was sh*t and said he wasn't up to it. Then they got Fletcher. Fletcher didn't work out, so they put Embleton back in charge permanently. The article clearly gives a list of clubs and managers to show BAME managers aren't really getting a look in. Orient have decided that he's called them racist.

Absolute victim mentality without an understanding of what was written.

Sorry but you are missing the point here. You do not know me as a person but we all know Orient and it's corporate identity and it is hardly of a victim mentality.

If you are going to list facts about racism and then refer to a football club that is clearly not racist, it would be wise to reference the fact that the club is not racist. At best it is poor journalism.

At the risk of being contradictory again but what would be the point in referencing that clubs are not racist when writing an article on the possible racism within football by clubs not appointing black managers?

coggos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:44 am

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:06 am

coggos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:40 am

In that case, the second on your "Half a brain cell" list will be Leyton Orient Football Club who officially described it as "Damaging" and have requested "A correction".

I make them spot on.

The same club that trust Martin Ling to run footballing matters. What on earth do they want a correction for? They put Embleton in charge on an interim basis. He f*cked it off because it was sh*t and said he wasn't up to it. Then they got Fletcher. Fletcher didn't work out, so they put Embleton back in charge permanently. The article clearly gives a list of clubs and managers to show BAME managers aren't really getting a look in. Orient have decided that he's called them racist.

Absolute victim mentality without an understanding of what was written.

Sorry but you are missing the point here. You do not know me as a person but we all know Orient and it's corporate identity and it is hardly of a victim mentality.

If you are going to list facts about racism and then refer to a football club that is clearly not racist, it would be wise to reference the fact that the club is not racist. At best it is poor journalism.

No, you are missing the point and so are Leyton Orient. He isn't calling Leyton Orient racist. He isn't implying Leyton Orient are racist.

He is using direct evidence to show the lack of diversity in football management and positions of power within football. It just so happens that Leyton Orient changed their manager within the time frame Oliver Holt used.

What he is questioning is how so few BAME players go into coaching/management and then how few actually get given jobs. The article states:
"Regulation 115.1 of the EFL code states that the rule applies only ‘where a club seeking to appoint a manager... operates a recruitment process (which, for the purposes of this regulation, involves any process of shortlisting of candidates and the interviewing of more than one candidate)’.

Which means that the culture of English football, which has led to a situation where there are only six BAME (Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic) managers at 91 League clubs, can continue unchallenged. Which means that managers can still be appointed on a nod and a wink and a who-you-know basis."

Martin Ling said in his interview when Fletcher was appointed "I sat down and had a coffee with 6 people". Was that an official shortlisting? Was that an informal chat? He goes on to say "I put 4 people to the board". Only the club knows if that list included BAME candidates or not. That last line holds up though. It was unsurprising that Ross got the job full time seeing how long he and Martin have known each other and that is running theme in football.

Clearly the club does a lot of great work for the local community and anti-racism, but this isn't about that. It's about BAME coaches being under-represented in positions of power at football clubs. The current first team squad has 9 BAME players out of 24. Most other teams in England have a lot of BAME players in their teams too, as has been the case for 20/30 years. How and why are they so under-represented in coaching and board levels?