Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Are there that many mugs about?

I was listening to Radio 4 this evening, and there was a sort of consumer affairs program on in the background as we are cooking etc. An article came up where someone had made a purchase of an item they'd found on eBay (it was a camper van - so not cheap, I'd imagine). Guess what? they'd paid for the item outside the eBay system - by way of a BACS transfer - and low and behold, they were surprised when the camper van never showed up !

It seems to be blatantly obvious that you should stick to the website's payment method, I'd have thought. Whether it be eBay or AirBnB or whatever - buying an item or renting a holiday apartment. Every single time I hear of a rip-off on peer-to-peer selling sites like this, the common denominator is always that the victim has chosen (or agreed) to go outside the very system that's there to protect them.

My question is - do any of you lot go outside the "proper" payment methods - and if so - why? It seems extraordinary to me - and I'm astounded when people do it and then complain they've been ripped off. Am I over cautious and too judgemental of victims ?

Presumably to avoid selling fees?

Yeah I'm guessing that's the excuse the scamster gives to the victim - and it obviously works in some cases - but why give up your protection to save the seller a fee? Seems extraordinarily altruistic. Maybe it happens a lot, but only a very few people get scammed - hence my query to the board.

I know someone who fell for a fake Airbnb flat rental, paid by bank transfer I think.

Also heard of somebody today who fell for a banking scam- got a call telling them they'd been a victim of fraud and they'd have to open a new account, this involved transferring all their money out of their existing account, which they were helpfully talked through.

Not been a victim of an on line scam but the wife got conned a couple or years ago , it was entirely her own foolishness that cost her , a guy phoned up and said he was a sergeant at Old Kent Road nick and her card had been used for a 500 quid purchase up north , the guy smoothed talked my wife to foolishly give her card details to him , the stupid cow also gave him the security code on the back , by the time she'd told me and I got the card stopped she was just over a grand light , i am still trying to get her bank ( Santander ) to tell me what was purchased and by whom , i reported it to the police who said they couldnt help the wife is far more careful now after the Bollocking i gave her .

BIGRON wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:12 pm Not been a victim of an on line scam but the wife got conned a couple or years ago , it was entirely her own foolishness that cost her , a guy phoned up and said he was a sergeant at Old Kent Road nick and her card had been used for a 500 quid purchase up north , the guy smoothed talked my wife to foolishly give her card details to him , the stupid cow also gave him the security code on the back , by the time she'd told me and I got the card stopped she was just over a grand light , i am still trying to get her bank ( Santander ) to tell me what was purchased and by whom , i reported it to the police who said they couldnt help the wife is far more careful now after the Bollocking i gave her .

Similar thing happened to me,
Gave me the last 4 digits of my bank card
Told me someone was in the process of spending
£1200 on clothes at Westfield west London.

About a minute later he asked me why i was crying
I told him i was laughing & itd be a miracle for me
to have £1200 sitting in my bank account .

Lots of swearing before he hung up on a still
chuckling me .

We used our credit card for a purchase on Amazon. All Ok, goods arrived. But we did get a call from Tesco Fraud Office asking did we make a large purchase. We hadn’t. The card was stopped, new one issued and our account was promptly refunded by Tesco.

It seems they have a sophisticated vetting system and it was not the size of the purchase that got flagged up, but the type of purchase and on their investigation the goods delivery address that didn’t fit our buying pattern.

They didn’t divulge exactly how they had picked it up but I was impressed that their IT systems had highlighted a risk, they quickly verified the possibility, contacted me and importantly refunded our account.

I can only assume that whilst our purchase from Amazon was perfectly valid, someone in the supply chain got access to our card details and decided to get some freebie goods.

It never fails to amaze me how people fall for these scams. Another popular one is people splash their life savings on investment scams, advertising ludicrous returns.

Unfortunately it does appear to be a generational thing, with older people more likely to fall for them.

Buying with a credit card gives some protection but the issue with eBay is Paypal. It also gives protection but it's charges to the seller are crazy and guess who eventually pays for that - the customer. If you look on the more industrial sales, many state that they are okay with cards but not Paypal. they cannot refuse Paypal under the terms but will often refuse the sale if an offer is made.

Some companies only accept Paypal if you pay "List" price so refuse offers via Paypal. Effectively, eBay is bandit country so be very, very careful. I could find you a scam ad within two minutes.

One might argue that if the seller can afford to pay the Paypal fees which are nearly always much higher than Mastercard etc, you are paying too much for the product in the first place !

Dohnut wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:43 am We used our credit card for a purchase on Amazon. All Ok, goods arrived. But we did get a call from Tesco Fraud Office asking did we make a large purchase. We hadn’t. The card was stopped, new one issued and our account was promptly refunded by Tesco.

It seems they have a sophisticated vetting system and it was not the size of the purchase that got flagged up, but the type of purchase and on their investigation the goods delivery address that didn’t fit our buying pattern.

They didn’t divulge exactly how they had picked it up but I was impressed that their IT systems had highlighted a risk, they quickly verified the possibility, contacted me and importantly refunded our account.

I can only assume that whilst our purchase from Amazon was perfectly valid, someone in the supply chain got access to our card details and decided to get some freebie goods.

Tesco have sent me two new cards so far this year as replacements for my existing ones (with new numbers) due to issues they've detected. Not sure what they were though, but I look at my online account every other day and definitely no dodgy transactions on there.

I'd never agree an 'outside' payment or give out any card details over the phone but then I've got over 40 years experience of working in financial services so am probably more switched on than most people. Sadly, there are still far too many people who don't really understand what they're doing and while, of course, the fault lies with the scumbags who prey on the vulnerable I still feel that most financial institutions don't take this seriously enough. They could do a lot more to educate and prevent fraud and are, in the main, shocking at dealing with customers who've been scammed.

Been digging about a bit more on this, just out of interest.

It looks like the charges to sellers on eBay, assuming you go through the whole system, are 10% to eBay, and 2.9% to Paypal plus 30p per transaction, so it looks like the lions share of the charges to be paid are to eBay rather than Paypal. I've never bought from eBay, and never sold anything there either but I'm sure that if I ever do use the site, there's no way I'll be paying for anything without the protection of Paypal.

I do book an AirBnB apartment in Portobello privately - outside their system - but that's one that I've stayed in several times before (the first time being through the website). Once we got to know the owner we just use ABnB to check availability and then book direct with them and pay them when we leave.

Still can't believe anyone just sends money to a perfect stranger without any protection.

Wife got an email from 'HMRC' telling her she was due a tax rebate and to upload her bank details to receive the money.

Laughed and told her it was a scam only to find her later in the evening entering her details on the link they'd sent her

Like BigRon and Mrs Ron, our conversation was erm, colourful.

RealLoughtonO wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:01 pm Wife got an email from 'HMRC' telling her she was due a tax rebate and to upload her bank details to receive the money.

Laughed and told her it was a scam only to find her later in the evening entering her details on the link they'd sent her

Like BigRon and Mrs Ron, our conversation was erm, colourful.

First rule of spotting a scam: HMRC will never contact you about a tax rebate via e-mail.

RealLoughtonO wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:01 pm Wife got an email from 'HMRC' telling her she was due a tax rebate and to upload her bank details to receive the money.

Laughed and told her it was a scam only to find her later in the evening entering her details on the link they'd sent her

Like BigRon and Mrs Ron, our conversation was erm, colourful.

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:49 pm

RealLoughtonO wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:01 pm Wife got an email from 'HMRC' telling her she was due a tax rebate and to upload her bank details to receive the money.

Laughed and told her it was a scam only to find her later in the evening entering her details on the link they'd sent her

Like BigRon and Mrs Ron, our conversation was erm, colourful.

First rule of spotting a scam: HMRC will never contact you about a tax rebate via e-mail.

I don’t think they would ever let you know that they owed you money!

Thor wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:13 pm

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:49 pm

RealLoughtonO wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:01 pm Wife got an email from 'HMRC' telling her she was due a tax rebate and to upload her bank details to receive the money.

Laughed and told her it was a scam only to find her later in the evening entering her details on the link they'd sent her

Like BigRon and Mrs Ron, our conversation was erm, colourful.

First rule of spotting a scam: HMRC will never contact you about a tax rebate via e-mail.

I don’t think they would ever let you know that they owed you money!

Actually they do. How much, why and when to expect the money. And they stick to it. All by letter and not email.

EH16 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:08 pm I'd never agree an 'outside' payment or give out any card details over the phone but then I've got over 40 years experience of working in financial services so am probably more switched on than most people. Sadly, there are still far too many people who don't really understand what they're doing and while, of course, the fault lies with the scumbags who prey on the vulnerable I still feel that most financial institutions don't take this seriously enough. They could do a lot more to educate and prevent fraud and are, in the main, shocking at dealing with customers who've been scammed.

Totally agree. Current finance transactions are a fraudsters wet dream. It the vulnerable that worries me. It’s so easy to see people who would fall for the scams.

Dohnut wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:10 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:13 pm

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:49 pm

First rule of spotting a scam: HMRC will never contact you about a tax rebate via e-mail.

I don’t think they would ever let you know that they owed you money!

Actually they do. How much, why and when to expect the money. And they stick to it. All by letter and not email.

Indeed so, still makes me angry 10yrs on, there's stupid for you.

Dohnut wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:10 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:13 pm

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:49 pm

First rule of spotting a scam: HMRC will never contact you about a tax rebate via e-mail.

I don’t think they would ever let you know that they owed you money!

Actually they do. How much, why and when to expect the money. And they stick to it. All by letter and not email.

When I was paying the highest rate of tax my pension contributions which I was due a relief or rebate or whatever you want to call it, they never told me, I had to deal with it myself. If I never knew about it they would have never given back what was owed to me.

I run an website / forum & FB group, every time someone posts a complaint I just copy the same guidance...

- PayPal Goods only, never friends and family
- use credit card for online purchases
- send everything tracked delivery

Soon as someone takes a shortcut around those they end up getting stung

Never had a Credit Card (only a Debit Card so you only spend what you have).

We go to the Santander Branch and draw out the cash that we need each week, from inside the branch by a real human being handing it over.

Utility Bills are paid for by cheque and posted.

We don't use online for shopping. In fact, we'd rather go without something than use Amazon. We use local shops (walking to most of them).

Guess what?

We've never been scammed.

Thor wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:06 pm

Dohnut wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:10 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:13 pm

I don’t think they would ever let you know that they owed you money!

Actually they do. How much, why and when to expect the money. And they stick to it. All by letter and not email.

When I was paying the highest rate of tax my pension contributions which I was due a relief or rebate or whatever you want to call it, they never told me, I had to deal with it myself. If I never knew about it they would have never given back what was owed to me.

Please stop I'm going to cry.

Imagine having to do something for your self. What kind of world is this?

gshaw wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:59 pm I run an website / forum & FB group, every time someone posts a complaint I just copy the same guidance...

- PayPal Goods only, never friends and family
- use credit card for online purchases
- send everything tracked delivery

Soon as someone takes a shortcut around those they end up getting stung

Is there some scam where fraudsters persuade victims to use PP Friends and Family instead of PP "business" ? Presumably there's less / no protection if your goods don't show up? We use paypal F&F to settle little betting debts between pals / golf game sweeps etc - is that OK ?

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:37 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:06 pm

Dohnut wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:10 pm

Actually they do. How much, why and when to expect the money. And they stick to it. All by letter and not email.

When I was paying the highest rate of tax my pension contributions which I was due a relief or rebate or whatever you want to call it, they never told me, I had to deal with it myself. If I never knew about it they would have never given back what was owed to me.

Please stop I'm going to cry.

Imagine having to do something for your self. What kind of world is this?

If you owe them, you're in trouble, if they owe you sort it out yourself. Seems fair does it?