Page 1 of 2
How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 10:56 am
by Razzmachaz
Hearing the losses of the first year at 2.5 million and losses for this year at still over 2 million even with the increase in crowds and revenue from cup runs etc. How long can we afford to run at this sort of loss? Even in L2 our projected loss would be over a million. I can't understand this considering under Hearn our annual loss was usually somewhere between 500k and 900k and that was with a much higher wage bill than currently and on lower crowds. With everything the club has done commercially recently I find it staggering that our projected losses next year will be higher than when in L1. Can anyone with some financial nous explain this?
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 11:01 am
by Esteban
Razzmachaz wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 10:56 am
Hearing the losses of the first year at 2.5 million and losses for this year at still over 2 million even with the increase in crowds and revenue from cup runs etc. How long can we afford to run at this sort of loss? Even in L2 our projected loss would be over a million. I can't understand this considering under Hearn our annual loss was usually somewhere between 500k and 900k and that was with a much higher wage bill than currently and on lower crowds. With everything the club has done commercially recently I find it staggering that our projected losses next year will be higher than when in L1. Can anyone with some financial nous explain this?
I prefer to leave the number crunching to those who know what they’re doing.
I’m confident that the current owners know what they are doing so I’ll leave it up to them. They have my trust.
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 11:06 am
by CreamofSumYungGai
Razzmachaz wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 10:56 am
Hearing the losses of the first year at 2.5 million and losses for this year at still over 2 million even with the increase in crowds and revenue from cup runs etc. How long can we afford to run at this sort of loss? Even in L2 our projected loss would be over a million. I can't understand this considering under Hearn our annual loss was usually somewhere between 500k and 900k and that was with a much higher wage bill than currently and on lower crowds. With everything the club has done commercially recently I find it staggering that our projected losses next year will be higher than when in L1. Can anyone with some financial nous explain this?
Impossible to comment with the publicly available information being so limited.
Nigel is a ridiculously wealthy fan of Orient. You can understand he would stump up his 50% share of an annual £1m loss to keep the club he loves running. Especially with the apparent tax breaks he's getting in the US.
Kent, I just don't know and don't get.
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 11:26 am
by A Pedant
1) Losses in the first two years will have included an element of clearing up the mess of the previous regime. I think it was Marshall Taylor at the AGM who said that there were things to sort across all areas of the club.
2) There was a huge hit on income just by being in the National League - £80k income from the National League compared to £1.2m in League Two.
3) It's impossible to know without further info, but it appears that the board's strategy is to 'invest' to get us back to League One ASAP while at the same time driving up income. If we're challenging again next year (not impossible, look at Tranmere) it will be interesting to see what the 2020/21 budget will be in League Two and League One scenarios.
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 11:28 am
by EH16
Razzmachaz wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 10:56 am
Hearing the losses of the first year at 2.5 million and losses for this year at still over 2 million even with the increase in crowds and revenue from cup runs etc. How long can we afford to run at this sort of loss? Even in L2 our projected loss would be over a million. I can't understand this considering under Hearn our annual loss was usually somewhere between 500k and 900k and that was with a much higher wage bill than currently and on lower crowds. With everything the club has done commercially recently I find it staggering that our projected losses next year will be higher than when in L1. Can anyone with some financial nous explain this?
I can't explain the nuts ands bolts but I'd be very surprised if all of this wasn't allowed for in their 5 year plan. Which, unlike what some believe, wasn't a plan to spend 5 years in the National League.
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 11:42 am
by Give it to Jabo
I would not complain if admission prices were raised slightly. There, I have said it.
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 11:45 am
by eagwgw
A Pedant wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 11:26 am
3) It's impossible to know without further info, but it appears that the board's strategy is to 'invest' to get us back to League One ASAP while at the same time driving up income. If we're challenging again next year (not impossible, look at Tranmere) it will be interesting to see what the 2020/21 budget will be in League Two and League One scenarios.
I gotta say the explanation of vague legacy items somehow costing the club millions is not very satisfying to me.
If there were events which required material exceptional expenditures I would have expected these to be disclosed at the AGM.
Yes, we know the club was a mess, but I don't see any real items that would need massive amounts of money to be spent.
For instance, the pitch became bad after neglect, but the club decided to take money from the supporters club to pay for an aerator.
The only things that make the story add up to me is either we have paid out a very large sum of money on wages, or either our income is hampered in some way (Beelzebub selling off future season ticket receipts). Or, perhaps during the year part of the payment to Beelzebub was settled using club finances (loss goes up, as does directors loans).
I agree that the strategy is to invest, but then this seems to contradict Travis's comments on Talksport. If we don't have many signings, where will we be spending to lose £1.1m? Turnover will have gone up because of increased admission prices and TV revenues.
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 11:51 am
by JimbO
Thought they said that they'd budgeted to lose about a million next year against 2.3 this year and would look to reduce it further in the coming years.
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 12:01 pm
by BoniO
CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 11:06 am
Razzmachaz wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 10:56 am
Hearing the losses of the first year at 2.5 million and losses for this year at still over 2 million even with the increase in crowds and revenue from cup runs etc. How long can we afford to run at this sort of loss? Even in L2 our projected loss would be over a million. I can't understand this considering under Hearn our annual loss was usually somewhere between 500k and 900k and that was with a much higher wage bill than currently and on lower crowds. With everything the club has done commercially recently I find it staggering that our projected losses next year will be higher than when in L1. Can anyone with some financial nous explain this?
Impossible to comment with the publicly available information being so limited.
Nigel is a ridiculously wealthy fan of Orient. You can understand he would stump up his 50% share of an annual £1m loss to keep the club he loves running. Especially with the apparent tax breaks he's getting in the US.
Kent, I just don't know and don't get.
In an earlier interview Kent had described his wealth as in "the tens of millions" which is a pretty broad brush. He's rich enough but not quite Abramovich......
His involvement does seem to be down to a genuine wish to achieve something with a pro sports club. We're just fortunate he has chosen us and so far so good!
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 12:01 pm
by CreamofSumYungGai
eagwgw wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 11:45 am
A Pedant wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 11:26 am
3) It's impossible to know without further info, but it appears that the board's strategy is to 'invest' to get us back to League One ASAP while at the same time driving up income. If we're challenging again next year (not impossible, look at Tranmere) it will be interesting to see what the 2020/21 budget will be in League Two and League One scenarios.
I gotta say the explanation of vague legacy items somehow costing the club millions is not very satisfying to me.
If there were events which required material exceptional expenditures I would have expected these to be disclosed at the AGM.
Yes, we know the club was a mess, but I don't see any real items that would need massive amounts of money to be spent.
For instance, the pitch became bad after neglect, but the club decided to take money from the supporters club to pay for an aerator.
The only things that make the story add up to me is either we have paid out a very large sum of money on wages, or either our income is hampered in some way (Beelzebub selling off future season ticket receipts). Or, perhaps during the year part of the payment to Beelzebub was settled using club finances (loss goes up, as does directors loans).
I agree that the strategy is to invest, but then this seems to contradict Travis's comments on Talksport. If we don't have many signings, where will we be spending to lose £1.1m? Turnover will have gone up because of increased admission prices and TV revenues.
It's wages. We brought in players from L1 and L2 on big bucks (comparatively , by NL standards). We brought in a director of football. We have a whole commercial team. We had costs for 2 managers after settling up Steve Davis so early.
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 12:06 pm
by spen666
Give it to Jabo wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 11:42 am
I would not complain if admission prices were raised slightly. There, I have said it.
You might not, and other lifelong orient fans might not, but higher prices will put off uncommitted people coming and therefore reduce to some degree the efforts to grow the support
Its important to remember that most people are not such committed fans of Orient
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 12:08 pm
by eagwgw
It is plausible enough that many people are on a decent wedge, maybe too much money.
But if we are not going to sign many players as Travis says, how can you square a loss of £1.1m for next year? We get over a million from TV revenues and more money from ticket sales and with increased values of sponsorship that figure could be over £1.5m just by being in the division above.
Some existing player wages would increase, but not by that much. £1.5m is more than some League teams entire playing budget.
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 12:28 pm
by RientO
spen666 wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 12:06 pm
...higher prices will put off uncommitted people coming ...
Agreed. Looking at the attendances of the Football for a Fiver, they are a bit higher than the normal equivalent game. I estimate at least 500 when comparing Eastleigh (5,203) with Fylde (4,696)
The two Saturday games were up around 500-1000 on the other attendances around that time.
Hartlepool 6,871
Bromley 6,058
Will be interesting to see how attendances hold up next season with increased prices. I suspect the East Stand pay on the gate price of £20 will rise to £24 in line with the increase in the STH price (Was £299 now £360).
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 12:50 pm
by Esteban
spen666 wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 12:06 pm
Give it to Jabo wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 11:42 am
I would not complain if admission prices were raised slightly. There, I have said it.
You might not, and other lifelong orient fans might not, but higher prices will put off uncommitted people coming and therefore reduce to some degree the efforts to grow the support
Its important to remember that most people are not such committed fans of Orient
You’re not even an Orient fan, so I doubt it would impact you anyway.
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 1:09 pm
by tuffers#1
25 people on a wage of £25k would amount to a sum of £625,000
25 k isnt really a decent wage is it ?
So if we assumed a full time staff of 50 @ £40k average
You can see where the money goes.
Then we have to pay medical staff for crowd safety & players welfare, stewarding etc there are massive numbers financially that will eat up any money bought into the club.
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 1:12 pm
by A Pedant
JimbO wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 11:51 am
Thought they said that they'd budgeted to lose about a million next year against 2.3 this year and would look to reduce it further in the coming years.
Circa £1.9m this year, £1.1m next year (would have been £1.75m if we'd remained in NL). 100% the board will want to reduce the annual loss going forward.
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 1:12 pm
by Give it to Jabo
Esteban wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 12:50 pm
spen666 wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 12:06 pm
Give it to Jabo wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 11:42 am
I would not complain if admission prices were raised slightly. There, I have said it.
You might not, and other lifelong orient fans might not, but higher prices will put off uncommitted people coming and therefore reduce to some degree the efforts to grow the support
Its important to remember that most people are not such committed fans of Orient
You’re not even an Orient fan, so I doubt it would impact you anyway.
Nice. Not gratuitous at all. You really are a swell.
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 1:17 pm
by Esteban
Give it to Jabo wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 1:12 pm
Esteban wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 12:50 pm
spen666 wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 12:06 pm
You might not, and other lifelong orient fans might not, but higher prices will put off uncommitted people coming and therefore reduce to some degree the efforts to grow the support
Its important to remember that most people are not such committed fans of Orient
You’re not even an Orient fan, so I doubt it would impact you anyway.
Nice. Not gratuitous at all. You really are a swell.
That wasn't aimed at you, Jabo.
It was for Spen.
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 1:18 pm
by Urbane Vancelo
Whatever it is, you can add 325 smackers. Just paid for the season tickets.
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 1:22 pm
by A Pedant
CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 12:01 pm
eagwgw wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 11:45 am
A Pedant wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 11:26 am
3) It's impossible to know without further info, but it appears that the board's strategy is to 'invest' to get us back to League One ASAP while at the same time driving up income. If we're challenging again next year (not impossible, look at Tranmere) it will be interesting to see what the 2020/21 budget will be in League Two and League One scenarios.
I gotta say the explanation of vague legacy items somehow costing the club millions is not very satisfying to me.
If there were events which required material exceptional expenditures I would have expected these to be disclosed at the AGM.
Yes, we know the club was a mess, but I don't see any real items that would need massive amounts of money to be spent.
For instance, the pitch became bad after neglect, but the club decided to take money from the supporters club to pay for an aerator.
The only things that make the story add up to me is either we have paid out a very large sum of money on wages, or either our income is hampered in some way (Beelzebub selling off future season ticket receipts). Or, perhaps during the year part of the payment to Beelzebub was settled using club finances (loss goes up, as does directors loans).
I agree that the strategy is to invest, but then this seems to contradict Travis's comments on Talksport. If we don't have many signings, where will we be spending to lose £1.1m? Turnover will have gone up because of increased admission prices and TV revenues.
It's wages. We brought in players from L1 and L2 on big bucks (comparatively , by NL standards). We brought in a director of football. We have a whole commercial team. We had costs for 2 managers after settling up Steve Davis so early.
It is indeed wages, and it really is also clearing up the mess left by Beelzebub. As said at the AGM, we owed money to practically every supplier and it's taken a lot of work to get the club's reputation back. An example was given by Marshall: we're paying about £20k a year more for the training ground lease now, because the previous regime allowed it to run out so it had to be re-negotiated from a panic position. Another example given was getting out of the ticketing system contract. I'm quoting here, Marshall said that there are still material effects on the club's costs today from the Beelzebub era.
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 1:26 pm
by spen666
Esteban wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 1:17 pm
Give it to Jabo wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 1:12 pm
Esteban wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 12:50 pm
You’re not even an Orient fan, so I doubt it would impact you anyway.
Nice. Not gratuitous at all. You really are a swell.
That wasn't aimed at you, Jabo.
It was for Spen.
You really haven't understood the admnis warnings about behaviour.
Oh and I have been an Orient season ticket holder for 20 years not that it has any bearing whatsoever on the fact the demand is price elastic
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 1:30 pm
by Mr. Peanutbutter
Also, something small to point out - £900,000 in 2010 is the equivalent of £1.13m today, taking inflation into account.
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 1:38 pm
by Esteban
spen666 wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 1:26 pm
Esteban wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 1:17 pm
Give it to Jabo wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 1:12 pm
Nice. Not gratuitous at all. You really are a swell.
That wasn't aimed at you, Jabo.
It was for Spen.
You really haven't understood the admnis warnings about behaviour.
Oh and I have been an Orient season ticket holder for 20 years not that it has any bearing whatsoever on the fact the demand is price elastic
A definition of you, taken from your own blog:
The travels and views of a Newcastle United supporting, Spennymoor Town fan who lives in Essex
Even you don't describe yourself as an Orient fan. So I'm going to get banned by the mods for describing you the exact way you describe yourself on your own blog?
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 1:50 pm
by Buddy Manucci
Spen has not been a season ticket holder here for 20 years, just not having it.
Re: How much money do we actually have?
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 3:36 pm
by CreamofSumYungGai
A Pedant wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 1:22 pm
CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 12:01 pm
eagwgw wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 11:45 am
I gotta say the explanation of vague legacy items somehow costing the club millions is not very satisfying to me.
If there were events which required material exceptional expenditures I would have expected these to be disclosed at the AGM.
Yes, we know the club was a mess, but I don't see any real items that would need massive amounts of money to be spent.
For instance, the pitch became bad after neglect, but the club decided to take money from the supporters club to pay for an aerator.
The only things that make the story add up to me is either we have paid out a very large sum of money on wages, or either our income is hampered in some way (Beelzebub selling off future season ticket receipts). Or, perhaps during the year part of the payment to Beelzebub was settled using club finances (loss goes up, as does directors loans).
I agree that the strategy is to invest, but then this seems to contradict Travis's comments on Talksport. If we don't have many signings, where will we be spending to lose £1.1m? Turnover will have gone up because of increased admission prices and TV revenues.
It's wages. We brought in players from L1 and L2 on big bucks (comparatively , by NL standards). We brought in a director of football. We have a whole commercial team. We had costs for 2 managers after settling up Steve Davis so early.
It is indeed wages, and it really is also clearing up the mess left by Beelzebub. As said at the AGM, we owed money to practically every supplier and it's taken a lot of work to get the club's reputation back. An example was given by Marshall: we're paying about £20k a year more for the training ground lease now, because the previous regime allowed it to run out so it had to be re-negotiated from a panic position. Another example given was getting out of the ticketing system contract. I'm quoting here, Marshall said that there are still material effects on the club's costs today from the Beelzebub era.
Ok, so that example accounts for £20k of the £2,000,000. Any others?
The money owed to the suppliers at take over won't have impacted on this loss.
I'm not suggesting anything untoward, and of course there will be some clear up costs, but the reason we've made such a whopping great loss is wages. That's not a criticism, there's clearly a decent budget there, and we're obviously putting in more commercial staff than ever before. But this simple line of it's all Bechettis fault is a bit silly.