panorama

[greyhound]

did you watch it last night.
the governments incompetence is mind blowing
especially where the company in this country has been begging them to take there P.P. E.
instead it sells almost all of it to America.

[Disoriented]

Yeah.

[3GO]

Clowns

[ComeOnYouOs]

Good old investigative journalism.
more proof ( if anymore were needed ) that the government have f*cked up .
To give the impression they have more PPR than they have, they count a pair of gloves as two pieces of PPE
Shameful

[greyhound]

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-p ... 08414.html


this

and this

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/gaps-scientif ... 05400.html

[Currywurst and Chips]

The BBC is so pro Tory I can't watch it anymore, doubt this "documentary" was any different

[Mick McQuaid]

As usual with Panorama there were some important points highlighted but their focus is always to push a narrative rather than give a balanced view and they cherry pick evidence to do this.

The deliberate running down of the PPE stockpile to save some money in the face of reports telling them it was inadequate is a scandal. The spinning of the figures to count every glove and paper towel was, I thought, well known. It has been frustrating that there has been a lack of questioning about how much is actually needed rather than just letting ministers quote impressive sounding numbers The lack of a coherent plan for avoiding the spread in care homes until it was already too late is another huge failure, as was the deliberate narrow definition of a care home initially so that they could again spin what resources were being provided. There is plenty that the government has messed up on and been less than honest about, including the guff about being lead by the science at all times when it looks like they were attempting to decide the science themselves.

However, trying to present it as a widespread view that the PPE provided to health and social care workers is inadequate and unsafe is from what I see absolutely wrong and risks doing nothing other than scaring workers unnecessarily. The guidance from the WHO on using FFP3 masks and full gowns seems to have been hidden away on their website now, I couldn't find it with a quick search to remind myself what the rationale was. What has been available since March on the WHO website, and updated in early April, is the guidance on recommended PPE where it is in short supply, which is absolutely consistent with the PHE guidelines. Just like almost any other virus there are some fairly simple things that can be done to minimise the risks of picking up and passing on an infection, I honestly feel I am safer at work than I am going to the shops. Showing the GP's in the hazmat suits was just idiotic, in only one of the cases in the services we run has there been a second case of an infection after an initial positive test - used correctly the equipment we have is absolutely appropriate. The problem I see is people not using the PPE they have correctly, using 'better' PPE isn't the answer for that - an FFP3 mask requires a fit test for example, just dishing them out would be counterproductive.

There may be issues with suppliers offering stocks that the government haven't followed up on, but an example of a manufacturer offering to supply material to make gowns is not the same as someone with a supply of useful PPE ready to go. Who knows whether this was a useful offer but there certainly wasn't the evidence that it was.

[DonaldRocks]

Let's call it. Boris and his Cabinet f*cked up. They can spin it whatever way they want. They f*cked up, big time! The UK and other countries around it will not be anywhere near normal for a long time. Again, Boris and his cronies Cummings et al f*cked up. Call it out simply. He f*cked it up.

[EliotNes]

They are fouling up entry into this country as well. 15,000 people a day flying into the country. OK, some are in transit but the majority are here to stay and some coming from countries where Covid 19 is established. Absolutely ridiculous. Close the borders are Oz & Kiwi-land did and are continuing to do.

[Mick McQuaid]

Absolutely agree Rory, but it's important to be clear and accurate on what they have got wrong, especially where it has been the result of decisions made, and the aim should be demand changes that will be effective not just to bash the Tories (as much as I enjoy that as a sport in it's own right).

The focus on the idea that workers are putting themselves at a terrible risk due to unsafe PPE is untrue and counterproductive, we need people to be able to calmly get on with their jobs while having an understanding of the risks.

Same with all the stories that come out daily about new studies that show how easily transmitted the virus is, how it has been detected on particles of air pollution, how someone coughing spreads out a 10 metre cloud of death, or it can be detected on surfaces weeks later. When you actually look at the studies there isn't actually any claim that a route of infection has been found. These are all initial studies on small samples with lots of assumptions with the method of detecting RNA rather than saying a viable source of infection has been found. You can find RNA on a disinfected surface but you could still give it a good luck perfectly safely.

The impact of the virus is obviously huge, but over egging how dangerous it is on an indiviusal level does nothing but give the government a get out, which is why they talk about this 'terrible virus' and 'invisible enemy. It allows them to try and present it, like they did yesterday, of having done a magnificent job against a formidable foe, hiding the fact that their lack of planning prevented some simple steps being taken that would have hugely reduced the impact.

[BoniO]

You seem quite sensible Mick. Why do you support the O's?

[DonaldRocks]

Maybe, you all shouldn't read what I posted on the Coronavirus thread.

[Winchesterfan]

Reading this thread it would seem that most people think that everything in this crisis is the fault of the Government and everyone else is right.

The Guardian newspaper ( not known for its support of the current Government) states that public trust ‘plummets’ to 51% in the way the government is handling the crisis. That means only 49% disapprove.

Therefore even they have to admit ( though they don’t) that the majority, albeit a slender one, still approve of the way the Government is handling the crisis.

Of course mistakes have been made but now is not the time to be ultra critical. We all need to pull together now, though there must be a public enquiry once we return to some form of normality to analyse the way the crisis was handled and to learn from the mistakes made. No one is perfect and hindsight is little help.

We won’t know, until it is all over, what was the best way to deal with the virus and until the full facts are known statistics can prove almost anything.

[Disoriented]

Reading this thread it would seem that most people think that everything in this crisis is the fault of the Government and everyone else is right.

The Guardian newspaper ( not known for its support of the current Government) states that public trust ‘plummets’ to 51% in the way the government is handling the crisis. That means only 49% disapprove.

Therefore even they have to admit ( though they don’t) that the majority, albeit a slender one, still approve of the way the Government is handling the crisis.

Of course mistakes have been made but now is not the time to be ultra critical. We all need to pull together now, though there must be a public enquiry once we return to some form of normality to analyse the way the crisis was handled and to learn from the mistakes made. No one is perfect and hindsight is little help.

We won’t know, until it is all over, what was the best way to deal with the virus and until the full facts are known statistics can prove almost anything.

Did you even watch it?

[Mick McQuaid]

The Guardian newspaper ( not known for its support of the current Government) states that public trust ‘plummets’ to 51% in the way the government is handling the crisis. That means only 49% disapprove.

Well known fact that at least half the country are wrong on every single issue though, the only debate is whether it's always the same 50%. I tend to think it is.

[Admin]

Reading this thread it would seem that most people think that everything in this crisis is the fault of the Government and everyone else is right.

The Guardian newspaper ( not known for its support of the current Government) states that public trust ‘plummets’ to 51% in the way the government is handling the crisis. That means only 49% disapprove.

Therefore even they have to admit ( though they don’t) that the majority, albeit a slender one, still approve of the way the Government is handling the crisis.

Of course mistakes have been made but now is not the time to be ultra critical. We all need to pull together now, though there must be a public enquiry once we return to some form of normality to analyse the way the crisis was handled and to learn from the mistakes made. No one is perfect and hindsight is little help.

Love the cap-doffing here. If it isn't the government's job to prepare the country for a pandemic and protect it's citizens, who's is it? Think it's fairly well accepted that Boris and his tribe of goons have been well caught out on this one. Quite frankly, I couldn't give a toss about public opinion when it's clear this government has failed not only to prepare but also to react. The last few weeks is littered with contradictions and failures and if there is anything to come from all this, I hope with every sinew that those who failed are held fully responsible. If you don't mind, I'll continue being critical thanks all the same.

Also, can you explain how we should all pull together? Would a milk bottle top recreation of Captain Tom make things better or perhaps getting my drum kit out on my driveway at 8.00 and doing a solo for the NHS this thursday will sort the corona virus quicker?

No-one's perfect? I'm sure that's a massive consolation for those who've lost loved ones far too early.

People like you just boil my piss. Happy to accept the state of this country and the way it's governed because it's too much effort to think or act differently.

[Bergen]

"Only 49 % disapprove"?

Under the circumstances, I would have thought that percentage was a lot lower.

[Winchesterfan]

Admin

Touched a raw nerve here. If you have anything to do with the control of this forum you should hang your head in shame. I disagree with you over your comments but no need to insult. Only time will tell and I say again mistakes have been made but now is not the time to continually criticise. It won’t achieve anything.Do you seriously think Corbyn would have done better and he WAS the leader of the opposition when the crisis first broke?
Bergen , you are correct those actually disapproving of the way the government are handling the crisis was, I believe, 31%. I added in those who weren’t sure and still approval was over 50%. I could have added those not sure to the 51% of those who approved but knowing the left trends and anti capitalist ideals of many on this forum thought I give them the benefit of doubt.
Perhaps Admin could state his position on this forum and if insults are appropriate or rather if better to allow different views and argue the case rather than sink to pathetic terminology worthy only of kids.

[Winchesterfan]

Disorientated. No I didn’t watch Panorama. I try and avoid the BBC as it remains too biased for me. It wasn’t called the Blair Brown Corporation for nothing. I prefer to listen to facts and not those cherry picked for only the bad mistakes whilst ignoring the positives.
This terrible crisis is having a devastating effect on the world. Just look at what has happened in Germany and Japan recently. Who is to blame there for relaxing social lockdown too early?
If the top scientists can’t agree what are governments supposed to do? Split the country in half and allow the scientists to prove which theory is correct by seeing which side most people die on?
It is unknown territory and governments are taking what they think is the best advice, for better or for worse. What is the alternative?

[BoniO]

Admin

Touched a raw nerve here. If you have anything to do with the control of this forum you should hang your head in shame. I disagree with you over your comments but no need to insult. Only time will tell and I say again mistakes have been made but now is not the time to continually criticise. It won’t achieve anything.Do you seriously think Corbyn would have done better and he WAS the leader of the opposition when the crisis first broke?
Bergen , you are correct those actually disapproving of the way the government are handling the crisis was, I believe, 31%. I added in those who weren’t sure and still approval was over 50%. I could have added those not sure to the 51% of those who approved but knowing the left trends and anti capitalist ideals of many on this forum thought I give them the benefit of doubt.
Perhaps Admin could state his position on this forum and if insults are appropriate or rather if better to allow different views and argue the case rather than sink to pathetic terminology worthy only of kids.

I get that you're an apologist for this vile government. I know others who refuse to accept the evidence of their ineptitude, lying, and complete lack of empathy. I find it hard to believe that you're not aware of their failings, you're just a dyed in the wool Tory, end of. Why engage brain?

The "not the time to criticise" argument is also bunkum. There is a chance that if the government recognises that their policies are unpopular then they will modify them. Not because it's the right thing to do but because they want to be popular. So, NOW is exactly the right time to criticise.

As for the old chestnut of "would Corbyn have done better" well that's a non argument and only shows a desperation that you can't think of anything positive to say about this disgusting Tory government. As has been said before, nobody knows how Corbyn would have handled the crisis. Absolutely nobody. Given the fiasco that has been this governments performance it seems unlikely that anyone else could have done any worse. But by simply using the "what if" scenario about Corbyn you lose any credibility. The Tories ARE in charge. We CAN see how they're doing. And it's bloody awful.

[Ornchurch]

If the top scientists can’t agree what are governments supposed to do? Split the country in half and allow the scientists to prove which theory is correct by seeing which side most people die on?

That's a fantastic idea. Can't think of a better way to reinforce the old North South divide.

[kokomO]

Admin

Touched a raw nerve here. If you have anything to do with the control of this forum you should hang your head in shame. I disagree with you over your comments but no need to insult. Only time will tell and I say again mistakes have been made but now is not the time to continually criticise. It won’t achieve anything.Do you seriously think Corbyn would have done better and he WAS the leader of the opposition when the crisis first broke?
Bergen , you are correct those actually disapproving of the way the government are handling the crisis was, I believe, 31%. I added in those who weren’t sure and still approval was over 50%. I could have added those not sure to the 51% of those who approved but knowing the left trends and anti capitalist ideals of many on this forum thought I give them the benefit of doubt.
Perhaps Admin could state his position on this forum and if insults are appropriate or rather if better to allow different views and argue the case rather than sink to pathetic terminology worthy only of kids.

I get that you're an apologist for this vile government. I know others who refuse to accept the evidence of their ineptitude, lying, and complete lack of empathy. I find it hard to believe that you're not aware of their failings, you're just a dyed in the wool Tory, end of. Why engage brain?

The "not the time to criticise" argument is also bunkum. There is a chance that if the government recognises that their policies are unpopular then they will modify them. Not because it's the right thing to do but because they want to be popular. So, NOW is exactly the right time to criticise.

As for the old chestnut of "would Corbyn have done better" well that's a non argument and only shows a desperation that you can't think of anything positive to say about this disgusting Tory government. As has been said before, nobody knows how Corbyn would have handled the crisis. Absolutely nobody. Given the fiasco that has been this governments performance it seems unlikely that anyone else could have done any worse. But by simply using the "what if" scenario about Corbyn you lose any credibility. The Tories ARE in charge. We CAN see how they're doing. And it's bloody awful.

Nailed It!

This Government is a massive stain on this country and it’s now costing us our loved ones.

[Disoriented]

Disorientated. No I didn’t watch Panorama. I try and avoid the BBC as it remains too biased for me. It wasn’t called the Blair Brown Corporation for nothing. I prefer to listen to facts and not those cherry picked for only the bad mistakes whilst ignoring the positives.
This terrible crisis is having a devastating effect on the world. Just look at what has happened in Germany and Japan recently. Who is to blame there for relaxing social lockdown too early?
If the top scientists can’t agree what are governments supposed to do? Split the country in half and allow the scientists to prove which theory is correct by seeing which side most people die on?
It is unknown territory and governments are taking what they think is the best advice, for better or for worse. What is the alternative?

So let me get this straight. You endeavour to discredit factual information presented on a programme that you did not watch and because you feel the BBC is biased.



Do you realise how stupid that sounds?

As for following advice, the government have consistently failed to follow their own. As well, with Cummings attending meetings run by scientists, they have placed political spin on life-changing decisions which should have been left to experts in their fields.

You applaud Johnson for making a joke out of the situation from the off and actually boasting about shaking hands with people in hospital?

You applaud Hancock and his department for failing to follow their own pandemic disaster plan and not preparing for such an eventuality?

You applaud the fact that so many health professionals have died because the government has consistently not provided them with enough PPE to safeguard their welfare?

You applaud the fact that Hancock lied about saying that PPE from Turkey was on its way before it had even been ordered?

Well do you, punk?

By the way, the name is Oriented.

Dis Oriented.

[Currywurst and Chips]

Admin

Touched a raw nerve here. If you have anything to do with the control of this forum you should hang your head in shame. I disagree with you over your comments but no need to insult. Only time will tell and I say again mistakes have been made but now is not the time to continually criticise. It won’t achieve anything.Do you seriously think Corbyn would have done better and he WAS the leader of the opposition when the crisis first broke?
Bergen , you are correct those actually disapproving of the way the government are handling the crisis was, I believe, 31%. I added in those who weren’t sure and still approval was over 50%. I could have added those not sure to the 51% of those who approved but knowing the left trends and anti capitalist ideals of many on this forum thought I give them the benefit of doubt.
Perhaps Admin could state his position on this forum and if insults are appropriate or rather if better to allow different views and argue the case rather than sink to pathetic terminology worthy only of kids.

I get that you're an apologist for this vile government. I know others who refuse to accept the evidence of their ineptitude, lying, and complete lack of empathy. I find it hard to believe that you're not aware of their failings, you're just a dyed in the wool Tory, end of. Why engage brain?

The "not the time to criticise" argument is also bunkum. There is a chance that if the government recognises that their policies are unpopular then they will modify them. Not because it's the right thing to do but because they want to be popular. So, NOW is exactly the right time to criticise.

As for the old chestnut of "would Corbyn have done better" well that's a non argument and only shows a desperation that you can't think of anything positive to say about this disgusting Tory government. As has been said before, nobody knows how Corbyn would have handled the crisis. Absolutely nobody. Given the fiasco that has been this governments performance it seems unlikely that anyone else could have done any worse. But by simply using the "what if" scenario about Corbyn you lose any credibility. The Tories ARE in charge. We CAN see how they're doing. And it's bloody awful.

Remember when you wanted Boris to declare a state of war so he could bypass parliament and do what he wants?

[BoniO]

Admin

Touched a raw nerve here. If you have anything to do with the control of this forum you should hang your head in shame. I disagree with you over your comments but no need to insult. Only time will tell and I say again mistakes have been made but now is not the time to continually criticise. It won’t achieve anything.Do you seriously think Corbyn would have done better and he WAS the leader of the opposition when the crisis first broke?
Bergen , you are correct those actually disapproving of the way the government are handling the crisis was, I believe, 31%. I added in those who weren’t sure and still approval was over 50%. I could have added those not sure to the 51% of those who approved but knowing the left trends and anti capitalist ideals of many on this forum thought I give them the benefit of doubt.
Perhaps Admin could state his position on this forum and if insults are appropriate or rather if better to allow different views and argue the case rather than sink to pathetic terminology worthy only of kids.

I get that you're an apologist for this vile government. I know others who refuse to accept the evidence of their ineptitude, lying, and complete lack of empathy. I find it hard to believe that you're not aware of their failings, you're just a dyed in the wool Tory, end of. Why engage brain?

The "not the time to criticise" argument is also bunkum. There is a chance that if the government recognises that their policies are unpopular then they will modify them. Not because it's the right thing to do but because they want to be popular. So, NOW is exactly the right time to criticise.

As for the old chestnut of "would Corbyn have done better" well that's a non argument and only shows a desperation that you can't think of anything positive to say about this disgusting Tory government. As has been said before, nobody knows how Corbyn would have handled the crisis. Absolutely nobody. Given the fiasco that has been this governments performance it seems unlikely that anyone else could have done any worse. But by simply using the "what if" scenario about Corbyn you lose any credibility. The Tories ARE in charge. We CAN see how they're doing. And it's bloody awful.

Remember when you wanted Boris to declare a state of war so he could bypass parliament and do what he wants?

Haha - I think I just wanted him to something..........