Independent Leyton Orient Forum

This was stated on the outlook podcast around the 1hr:15 mark.

Seems a tad high?

Perhaps 5.8m plus VAT?

No, £7m is correct, was mentioned by Nigel or Danny (can't remember which) at the meet the chairman evening.

How on Earth is our cost base that high???

Whats our turnover then? I’d be surprised I’d it’s anywhere near that.

A/C closed.

4 million on goal keeping coaches?

The number of staff upstairs pushing buttons has trebled since Macklin took charge so I'm not suprised. A massive bulk of our wage budget is being used on Non-playing staff, instead of being put on the pitch. Compare this to the structure Hearn had and it’s completely different. Would be interesting to know the number of directors we had in the Hearn era versus how many we have now.

Don’t forget when building a business the infrastructure needs to be built and that costs money. When you’ve done that then you can try to obtain the business which in time will bring you a return on investment.

I’d suggest that is exactly where we are right now.

Seems worrying.

It need not be as there is a plan to get us to x amount, then x amount and so on. The positive is the structure is built, now we need to add the sales to the equation to balance out the cost and bring us around to break even or may l mention the elephant in the room profit!!

EssexO wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:11 pm The number of staff upstairs pushing buttons has trebled since Macklin took charge so I'm not suprised. A massive bulk of our wage budget is being used on Non-playing staff, instead of being put on the pitch. Compare this to the structure Hearn had and it’s completely different. Would be interesting to know the number of directors we had in the Hearn era versus how many we have now.

Agreed, but Hearn also took some costs into Matchroom ("central costs") that we have probably now have had to suffer back at Orient. Probably the sort of costs that left many staff at their wits end in the FB era.

Gonna be a massive stretch to achieve that without player sales.
Not many clubs publish turnover figures now. Lincoln have for last season - they turned over £5.28m on an average attendance of 8,782.

The last time we published turnover was under Hearn. In the 2013-2014 play-off season we did £4.32m. Nominal prices have probably increased since then on average, as well as TV payments and commercial income. At a guess we may be somewhere between £5m-5.5m at the moment.

It does seem absurd that the figure should be so high for break-even, but the only real explanation is that we are paying too many people, too much money.

To put it in a bit of perspective, 5000 season tickets averaged at £300 each is only £1.5m....being a league 2 member is also worth £1m.

I suspect we only turn over £5-£5.5 as per eagwgw and lose £400k. The cost of breaking even is another £1.5-2m turnover.

When you visualise numbers like these, I find it hard to accept criticism of the ownership. You'd have to be mad or stupid to own a football club.

LittleMate wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:48 am To put it in a bit of perspective, 5000 season tickets averaged at £300 each is only £1.5m....being a league 2 member is also worth £1m.

I suspect we only turn over £5-£5.5 as per eagwgw and lose £400k. The cost of breaking even is another £1.5-2m turnover.

When you visualise numbers like these, I find it hard to accept criticism of the ownership. You'd have to be mad or stupid to own a football club.

What does the lose £400k bit mean?

I just can't get my head around these numbers. What have we got, 20 senior pros? Earning an average of say £75k, so that's £1.5m. Rent to Hearn is still £180k, isn't it?

What is the other £5.3m being spent on?

There is a gap in our finances but it's the same at almost all EFL clubs. The bulk of turnover isn't spent on office staff but on players and football staffing contracts (we have a lot of coaches at different age groups plus Foster and his scouts) again it's the same at any EFL club, On top of wages there are tax and NI and Insurance obligations. We rent the ground and training ground too. The owners are working hard to close that gap and make the club sustainable but it's going to take a few years to get anywhere near break even.-

The average wage cost must clearly be higher.

Think there are plenty of other assorted employees around in the background who are not players, maybe 50 full time assorted coaches at the various levels, backroom staff. It might be more.

If the figures ever are released for this season perhaps the turnover will be artificially bigger. I forgot to include Bonne and Koroma transfer fees.

Travis and Teague said we expect to lose around a million this financial year. In the years ahead we would work towards a securing a better financial footing with an objective to be at a break even figure.

Also remember Teague has said himself that the money he wrote a cheque for still sits in a bank account (probably eagle rather than orients) and has not been touched from his original investment. He was happy about that, so it can't be all that bad can it? The holy grail is to be self sufficient and sustainable.

Remember Man City were slaughtered for the spending once their current owners took over however, they were building a business for the long term, not for 5 mins. I see our board building in a similar fashion albeit on a smaller scale.

The latest Football Manager game reckons many senior players are on around 90k.

LittleMate wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:48 am To put it in a bit of perspective, 5000 season tickets averaged at £300 each is only £1.5m....being a league 2 member is also worth £1m.

I suspect we only turn over £5-£5.5 as per eagwgw and lose £400k. The cost of breaking even is another £1.5-2m turnover.

When you visualise numbers like these, I find it hard to accept criticism of the ownership. You'd have to be mad or stupid to own a football club.

Unless your mafia, criminal, a money Laundering Soviet/Former Soviet oligarch or middle eastern tyrant.

Ps. When will Boris publish the Russia Report?

RoryRocks wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:30 am

LittleMate wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:48 am To put it in a bit of perspective, 5000 season tickets averaged at £300 each is only £1.5m....being a league 2 member is also worth £1m.

I suspect we only turn over £5-£5.5 as per eagwgw and lose £400k. The cost of breaking even is another £1.5-2m turnover.

When you visualise numbers like these, I find it hard to accept criticism of the ownership. You'd have to be mad or stupid to own a football club.

Unless your mafia, criminal, a money Laundering Soviet/Former Soviet oligarch or middle eastern tyrant.

Ps. When will Boris publish the Russia Report?

Why has Boris commissioned a report into why we never won the World Cup?

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:39 am There is a gap in our finances but it's the same at almost all EFL clubs. The bulk of turnover isn't spent on office staff but on players and football staffing contracts (we have a lot of coaches at different age groups plus Foster and his scouts) again it's the same at any EFL club, On top of wages there are tax and NI and Insurance obligations. We rent the ground and training ground too. The owners are working hard to close that gap and make the club sustainable but it's going to take a few years to get anywhere near break even.-

That's a lot of words that doesn't come anywhere near to explaining where the other £5million is being spent.

eagwgw wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:40 am The average wage cost must clearly be higher.

Think there are plenty of other assorted employees around in the background who are not players, maybe 50 full time assorted coaches at the various levels, backroom staff. It might be more.

If the figures ever are released for this season perhaps the turnover will be artificially bigger. I forgot to include Bonne and Koroma transfer fees.

I think this is the crux of it. We must be paying the senior squad salaries in excess of £100k p.a. even then the numbers still don't add up.

The majority of those coaches will be volunteers, doing it to bolster cv's or for the experience etc. I'm sure they'll be getting expenses but they won't be taking a wage. (Obviously there are some that look after the youth system who do it full time and are salaried).

Redo I coach at an academy and it’s more than expenses, it’s an hourly rate plus kit etc.

Amazingly Walsall are near this £7m mark (£6.6m). This is break-even for them (although it seems expenditures can be dialled down to match turnover, they are always in balance), so perhaps we are running on the same cost structures. Their commercial operations must be incredible.

They pay out £4.1m on salaries, but that includes everyone at the club. There are 86 players and coaching staff, on average in the year, and 45 other staff.

The rest of the expenses are uncategorised as 'other' but I reckon all the temporary staff taken on via agencies are lumped in here as well and over the course of a season also a significant expense.