Independent Leyton Orient Forum

There was an interesting phone in on LBC with Margaret Beckett last night.

She provided an interesting and illuminating insight into the position of JC on Bexit.

She referred back to the 1975 EU Referendum when Harold Wilson was PM and took a negative stance in the referendum debate. She however pointed out that the Labour Government did take a clear stance (which was anti remaining in the EU). All MPs were given a free choice of whether to campaign for leave or remain. The only stipulation was no personal attacks on each other.

It was clear from what Margaret Beckett was saying that JC was trying to adopt a similar position.

Where it seems to fall down is:

1. The Labour Party/ Shadow Cabinet have not adopted a stance ( as they had in 1975)
2. MPs have not (really) been given a free vote ( That applies across all parties and all views)
3. There have been too many personal attacks on this topic ( That applies across all parties and all views)
4. In 1975 there was not the same ties to break with the EEC and as such no need for Harold Wilson to have lead negotiations in the same way that JC would have to. Indeed there was no need to negotiate a withdrawal agreement back in 1975

I can understand where JC is coming from but his position is not one that is supported by the majority of people whether either leave or remain supporters

Until being given his present job as leader of the labour party, Corbyn had been a bit of a maverick in the Labour party and along with Dennis Skinner, was always for coming out of the EU. So a dilemma for him now as he has to go along with the views of many other's in his party who are pro remain, whilst historically he is pro leaving the EU, torn in two ways now !

Its almost irrelevant what Jeremy's view is. He is bound by the democratic decisions of the party and I'm convinced he will respect them.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:35 pm Its almost irrelevant what Jeremy's view is. He is bound by the democratic decisions of the party and I'm convinced he will respect them.

It really is this simple.

What I don't get is why his personal preference has any bearing whatsoever when he's committed to enabling the result of the 2nd referendum. He could stand there and scream "leave" whilst dressed as Clement Attlee holding a gun to a small dogs head and I'd still vote remain.

Personally, I don't need a politician to make my mind up for me.

Father Ted Crilly wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:40 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:35 pm Its almost irrelevant what Jeremy's view is. He is bound by the democratic decisions of the party and I'm convinced he will respect them.

It really is this simple.

What I don't get is why his personal preference has any bearing whatsoever when he's committed to enabling the result of the 2nd referendum. He could stand there and scream "leave" whilst dressed as Clement Attlee holding a gun to a small dogs head and I'd still vote remain.

Personally, I don't need a politician to make my mind up for me.

Both good points however, we do need them to explain why we should stay and why we should leave. Only then can one make an informed decision.

Father Ted Crilly wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:40 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:35 pm Its almost irrelevant what Jeremy's view is. He is bound by the democratic decisions of the party and I'm convinced he will respect them.

....

What I don't get is why his personal preference has any bearing whatsoever when he's committed to enabling the result of the 2nd referendum. He could stand there and scream "leave" whilst dressed as Clement Attlee holding a gun to a small dogs head and I'd still vote remain.

....

It is relevant to his claim he would go to the EU and negotiate another deal. If people don't know what his views are, how can they decide if they think he will get a good deal.

His continual trying to avoid the position and the labour party also trying to fence sit is not helping them. His remaining neutral may work with public if they knew where his party stood as was the case in 1975

Its incredible that a major party and its leader are avoiding taking a position on the main political issue of the day

Labour's policy on Brexit is the only one that can deliver an outcome, either way, in a manner that is least divisive.

Dunners wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:11 pm Labour's policy on Brexit is the only one that can deliver an outcome, either way, in a manner that is least divisive.

Not sure that's a correct statement. In what way is it the least divisive?

Thornberry who will lead the negotiations has already stated on camera that she will do a deal to leave and then vote to remain. Your chief exit negotiator doing to opposite of what the people have already decided they want to do, which is to leave.

It's less divisive than:

a) Revoking A50
b) Pushing through the WA with terms that the electorate were unable to consider when asked to vote in 2016.

A two-stage process was always the most sensible approach, something that old JRM even said prior to the referendum. If the result is still to leave, then nobody can reasonably complain. Although I do acknowledge that a narrow victory for remain would still be problematic. But then there's no easy way out of all of this.

Your last sentence is 100% correct.

Thor wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:01 pm

Father Ted Crilly wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:40 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:35 pm Its almost irrelevant what Jeremy's view is. He is bound by the democratic decisions of the party and I'm convinced he will respect them.

It really is this simple.

What I don't get is why his personal preference has any bearing whatsoever when he's committed to enabling the result of the 2nd referendum. He could stand there and scream "leave" whilst dressed as Clement Attlee holding a gun to a small dogs head and I'd still vote remain.

Personally, I don't need a politician to make my mind up for me.

Both good points however, we do need them to explain why we should stay and why we should leave. Only then can one make an informed decision.

He can explain the mechanics of the deal without trying to influence the electorate either way.

What is so difficult to understand about this?

Dunners wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:11 pm Labour's policy on Brexit is the only one that can deliver an outcome, either way, in a manner that is least divisive.

Corbyn will go back to EU with a plan that will be very much like we had with the EU before 2016 referenden. Alternative will be to remain. What will be the difference . Either will not respect the will of the country to leave and have our own laws

The “will of the country” zzzzzz.
Wasn’t going to be long before someone rolled out the usual Brexit sound bite but prior to that some great comments. Nice one all.

Orient Punxx wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:45 am The “will of the country” zzzzzz.
Wasn’t going to be long before someone rolled out the usual Brexit sound bite but prior to that some great comments. Nice one all.

Another person with a problem with democracy

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:35 pm Its almost irrelevant what Jeremy's view is. He is bound by the democratic decisions of the party and I'm convinced he will respect them.

The democratic decision of the public trumps the decision of the party.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:11 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:35 pm Its almost irrelevant what Jeremy's view is. He is bound by the democratic decisions of the party and I'm convinced he will respect them.

The democratic decision of the public trumps the decision of the party.

Tell that to the public in Hong Kong.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man".

George Bernard Shaw .

Seems to me like Corbyn is being the reasonable man

Reasonable man I don’t think so. He does not have any views on anything. He is being used as a kingpin by all his left wing cronies .If they ever got into Parliament we would go back to the seventies.Look at the financial mess that the country was left in after The last Labour government.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:11 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:11 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:35 pm Its almost irrelevant what Jeremy's view is. He is bound by the democratic decisions of the party and I'm convinced he will respect them.

The democratic decision of the public trumps the decision of the party.

Tell that to the public in Hong Kong.

We ain’t in Hong Kong.

moonwalk19 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:36 pm Reasonable man I don’t think so. He does not have any views on anything. He is being used as a kingpin by all his left wing cronies .If they ever got into Parliament we would go back to the seventies.Look at the financial mess that the country was left in after The last Labour government.

I think you will find the unreasonable man is the press who use there power to persist attacking only 1 side .
The side who will make them pay more tax.

The side who while hoarding there billions tight to.there chests, tell you be careful they want your money not ours.

If, (Yahweh help us all) Corbyn does win this Election I can see it panning out thus. Corbyn f***s up everything in his first month. John McDonnell sees his chance, denounces and purges the Corbynists and launches a successful coup against Jezza with the backing of the Momentum and the LRC fascists. Bingo! Britain's first Marxist PM.

Job done! Corbyn is just a puppet leader.

I'd like to say if Labour get in I'd leave the country, but I've done that already.

Love and Peace.

Quite frankly, the biggest f*** up is already underway courtesy of the Tories.
They elected Johnson as their leader and for each passing day it is becoming more apparent that his personal mission to be Churchill MK II is a mega delusion.
He doesn't give a XXXX about the country and his performance today has shown that he has no conscience.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:11 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:11 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:35 pm Its almost irrelevant what Jeremy's view is. He is bound by the democratic decisions of the party and I'm convinced he will respect them.

The democratic decision of the public trumps the decision of the party.

Tell that to the public in Hong Kong.

Or in Barcelona.

Dunners wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:11 pm Labour's policy on Brexit is the only one that can deliver an outcome, either way, in a manner that is least divisive.

It is the most divisive. At least with the Liberals I know where they stand. They hate Brexit full stop. The Labour Party aside from Corbyn also hate brexit but are pretending they don’t mind it if they could get a great deal. When they get a great deal (which they won’t) they will go back to hating it again. They will then put this deal which would be remain in all but name against remain. I am amazed that you and many others cannot see that this would lead to this country torn to pieces. Nobody on the leave side would campaign for labours deal, labour won’t even campaign for the labour deal. The referendum result would have no legitimacy and it would be a farce. If there is anything that could tip the country into losing the plot this would be it.

There's plenty on the left who are anti-EU, it's not just Corbyn. As I've mentioned, I can see how a narrow remain victory would be problematic. But I just cannot see there being widespread civil unrest whatever happens. Although we've all been whipped up and manipulated to believe that brexit is the biggest issue of our time, when all is said and done, I just don't think it is. Apart from the usual rabble of activists on both sides, most ordinary people don't give the issue of EU membership a second's thought as they go about their daily lives.

Having said that, I remember the horror show that was the last referendum campaign. I really do not relish the prospect of another one.