Independent Leyton Orient Forum

I was interested to see that Carlisle Utd announced yesterday that they have had in excess of 100 applications for the role of new Head Coach in the 6 days since they sacked Steven Pressley.

https://www.newsandstar.co.uk/sport/180 ... ead-coach/

I realise it’s not straightforward to try and make like for like comparisons but - geographical location apart - there are a number of parallels between the O’s and Carlisle as football clubs :-
Same Division
Similar records this season
Probably a “ top 8” budget like the O’s
Given those similarities, I wonder what the reasons are behind the disparity between the 40 applicants the O’s received and the 100 plus Carlisle have had presented to them?
The obvious conclusion is that the pre- conditions around having to retain the existing back room staff and not having “ multiple previous clubs” had a notable impact on the number of people who were willing to express an interest in the Orient job.

The advantage Carlisle have over us is, they dont tell the potential manager, he cant bring his own coaches/staff in, like we do.

We will never know how many good managers turned us down, or never even applied in the first place, because they knew they couldnt bring their own people in

The disadvantage of Carlisle is that the current board only issue 12month contracts, meaning the chance of attracting decent players to up sticks and live nr Carlisle is severely affected. Wages are lower, and the travelling!
I think that outweighs the DoF/current coaching staff argument.

Andy Gilson wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:24 am The disadvantage of Carlisle is that the current board only issue 12month contracts, meaning the chance of attracting decent players to up sticks and live nr Carlisle is severely affected. Wages are lower, and the travelling!
I think that outweighs the DoF/current coaching staff argument.

I don't agree.

The restriction on bringing in your own people and being unable to get rid of the existing coaching team is huge disincentive and creates situations like the recent Fletcher debacle where the manager is undermined and has no authority

Seems there are a lot of unemployed coaches/managers out there and a lot who may be currently employed who want a go at such a job

So I take it people are suggesting we bin Ross? His great service to th club counting for nothing. Kick him out, stop him from being able to support his family even though he has done a great job for us?

Nice.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:09 pm So I take it people are suggesting we bin Ross? His great service to th club counting for nothing. Kick him out, stop him from being able to support his family even though he has done a great job for us?

Nice.

Bit like with Ling then?

spen666 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:16 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:09 pm So I take it people are suggesting we bin Ross? His great service to th club counting for nothing. Kick him out, stop him from being able to support his family even though he has done a great job for us?

Nice.

Bit like with Ling then?

Personally I have no issue with Ling and the DoF role. Makes sense given our setup. Don’t mean to say I think everything he has done has been right. He has made mistakes, quite a few, but in a results orientated business his record is impressive.

He should avoid the type of discussions we just witnessed. Not his thing.

Disagree nut, its exactly what they should be doing and I applaud them for the openness shown. It didn't show ML in the greatest light, but that's life.

Thor wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:23 pm Disagree nut, its exactly what they should be doing and I applaud them for the openness shown. It didn't show ML in the greatest light, but that's life.

I dunno. I can handle people like Ling, he might not be too bright but he's honest. If he thinks a stupid thing he'll just come right out and tell you about it. You know exactly where you stand. The problem is capable liars.

Thor wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:23 pm Disagree nut, its exactly what they should be doing and I applaud them for the openness shown. It didn't show ML in the greatest light, but that's life.

Not questioning the show at all, I applaud them too. Ling was there because he had no choice, he owned up to getting wrong, again he had no choice.

But it’s not his sort of thing. He looked uncomfortable, often took a defensive/aggressive stance when there was no need and all too often drifted off the point. My suggestion is really he should only do this stuff when he has no choice. Better to let Travis and Teague look after the PR.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:09 pm So I take it people are suggesting we bin Ross? His great service to th club counting for nothing. Kick him out, stop him from being able to support his family even though he has done a great job for us?

Nice.

Ross is not a long serving coach like Les Gore was to us, he has been in his present job with us for just two full seasons, plus ongoing in this current one.
As to the sentiment ''Kick him out, stop him from being able to support his family even though he has done a great job for us?''
Well has he done a ''great'' job for us, I am not fully convinced on that one, an ok job perhaps but great job ?
Also, I remember you going on a big love Ross campaign when we had the 3-2 away win to Mansfield Town...and the love in did not last that long !
Well following your line, no football players Managers, Coaches would ever lose their jobs. As you have said yourself when wearing your ''President of business hat'' something on the lines of that there is no sentiment in pro football, its a high reward, short lived life with the risk of losing your job always there , be it as a player, manager or coach etc !

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:46 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:09 pm So I take it people are suggesting we bin Ross? His great service to th club counting for nothing. Kick him out, stop him from being able to support his family even though he has done a great job for us?

Nice.

Ross is not a long serving coach like Les Gore was to us, he has been in his present job with us for just these two seasons plus this one.
As to the sentiment ''Kick him out, stop him from being able to support his family even though he has done a great job for us?''
Well has he done a great job for us, has he ? I am not fully convinced on that one, an ok job perhaps but great job ?
Also, I remember you going on a big love Ross campaign when we had the 3-2 away win to Mansfield Town...and the love in did not last that long !
Well following your line, no football players Managers, Coaches would ever lose their jobs. As you have said yourself when wearing your ''President of business hat'' something on the lines of that there is no sentiment in pro football, its a high reward, short lived life with the risk of losing your job always there , be it as a player, manager or coach etc !

You know as well as anybody football is a high risk, high reward business. Though at our level it’s probably high risk, moderate reward.

People get replaced including back room staff when a manager screws up. The boss goes and often his coaches too. I have no problem with that Sid. People know the score when they choose that profession.

Had Justin done badly then he and Ross would have gone. No complaints from me, thats football. But that was not the case, they did bloody well and I see no reason why Ross should be penalised over circumstances outside his control when he has done a good job. So I have no issue with the club stance being a new head coach expected to work with the existing team.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:58 pm

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:46 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:09 pm So I take it people are suggesting we bin Ross? His great service to th club counting for nothing. Kick him out, stop him from being able to support his family even though he has done a great job for us?

Nice.

Ross is not a long serving coach like Les Gore was to us, he has been in his present job with us for just these two seasons plus this one.
As to the sentiment ''Kick him out, stop him from being able to support his family even though he has done a great job for us?''
Well has he done a great job for us, has he ? I am not fully convinced on that one, an ok job perhaps but great job ?
Also, I remember you going on a big love Ross campaign when we had the 3-2 away win to Mansfield Town...and the love in did not last that long !
Well following your line, no football players Managers, Coaches would ever lose their jobs. As you have said yourself when wearing your ''President of business hat'' something on the lines of that there is no sentiment in pro football, its a high reward, short lived life with the risk of losing your job always there , be it as a player, manager or coach etc !

You know as well as anybody football is a high risk, high reward business. Though at our level it’s probably high risk, moderate reward.

People get replaced including back room staff when a manager screws up. The boss goes and often his coaches too. I have no problem with that Sid. People know the score when they choose that profession.

Had Justin done badly then he and Ross would have gone. No complaints from me, thats football. But that was not the case, they did bloody well and I see no reason why Ross should be penalised over circumstances outside his control when he has done a good job. So I have no issue with the club stance being a new head coach expected to work with the existing team.

Its a results driven business. They will tell us all we need to know.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:00 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:58 pm

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:46 pm

Ross is not a long serving coach like Les Gore was to us, he has been in his present job with us for just these two seasons plus this one.
As to the sentiment ''Kick him out, stop him from being able to support his family even though he has done a great job for us?''
Well has he done a great job for us, has he ? I am not fully convinced on that one, an ok job perhaps but great job ?
Also, I remember you going on a big love Ross campaign when we had the 3-2 away win to Mansfield Town...and the love in did not last that long !
Well following your line, no football players Managers, Coaches would ever lose their jobs. As you have said yourself when wearing your ''President of business hat'' something on the lines of that there is no sentiment in pro football, its a high reward, short lived life with the risk of losing your job always there , be it as a player, manager or coach etc !

You know as well as anybody football is a high risk, high reward business. Though at our level it’s probably high risk, moderate reward.

People get replaced including back room staff when a manager screws up. The boss goes and often his coaches too. I have no problem with that Sid. People know the score when they choose that profession.

Had Justin done badly then he and Ross would have gone. No complaints from me, thats football. But that was not the case, they did bloody well and I see no reason why Ross should be penalised over circumstances outside his control when he has done a good job. So I have no issue with the club stance being a new head coach expected to work with the existing team.

Its a results driven business. They will tell us all we need to know.

All we need to decide is the timeframe and all we will be able to see is Ross’s ability as a Head Coach, not a number 2

He's had quite a few games already. He's nothing special.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:04 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:00 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:58 pm

You know as well as anybody football is a high risk, high reward business. Though at our level it’s probably high risk, moderate reward.

People get replaced including back room staff when a manager screws up. The boss goes and often his coaches too. I have no problem with that Sid. People know the score when they choose that profession.

Had Justin done badly then he and Ross would have gone. No complaints from me, thats football. But that was not the case, they did bloody well and I see no reason why Ross should be penalised over circumstances outside his control when he has done a good job. So I have no issue with the club stance being a new head coach expected to work with the existing team.

Its a results driven business. They will tell us all we need to know.

All we need to decide is the timeframe and all we will be able to see is Ross’s ability as a Head Coach, not a number 2

Were you in a coma from the summer until Fletcher came in?

He is not a manager. Full stop. Don't buy in to the ling narrative or travis for that matter, when the time is right we need a proper full on man manager of people not another bloddy coach.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:09 pm So I take it people are suggesting we bin Ross? His great service to th club counting for nothing. Kick him out, stop him from being able to support his family even though he has done a great job for us?

Nice.

Give him a 20 year contract then. Make sure we put his kids through Uni as well. Football is a fickle business and I’m sure Ross knows how quickly things can change and how flexible you have to be when it comes to employment. You don’t get into professional football coaching for a steady job ffs.

I have said this on a previous post.
there must be big number of managers who would jump at the chance
to manage a London club regardless of its size.

I'd imagine most prospective lower league managers would accept just bringing one person with them:
No doubt an 'assistant manager', or 'coach'. Probably their mucker, all told.

Although, I don't specifically remember Slade bringing anyone...

The trouble is with 3 coaches in situ already, there's no way the club would extend it to 5, which would be ridiculous for a club in the lower echelons of the basement division.

Either one of them (RE, DW,JM) would need to go, or the situation (one in which we can only attract charlatans like Fletcher) would seem likely to continue...

Andy Gilson wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:24 am The disadvantage of Carlisle is that the current board only issue 12month contracts, meaning the chance of attracting decent players to up sticks and live nr Carlisle is severely affected. Wages are lower, and the travelling!
I think that outweighs the DoF/current coaching staff argument.

Thanks Andy,
Fair point about the 12 month contracts, I certainly didn’t know that. Not so sure about your argument re Carlisle and the travelling. If it were a massive turn off wouldn’t it similarly impact on the number of prospective managerial candidates they have applications from?

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:09 pm So I take it people are suggesting we bin Ross? His great service to th club counting for nothing. Kick him out, stop him from being able to support his family even though he has done a great job for us?

Nice.

From my perspective dOh it genuinely isn’t a case of suggesting “we bin Ross”. My feeling is that there should not be a precondition that any new coaching appointment precludes the new man from bringing in his own staff if he can make a case for doing so.

greyhound wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:14 pm I have said this on a previous post.
there must be big number of managers who would jump at the chance
to manage a London club regardless of its size.

Why?

Why would they want to move to a big city where property prices etc are much higher, crime is far more prevalent etc. Stabbings and murders are happening at an alarming rate etc

Limited player and manager pool does not seem to have affected Barrow, they are top of the National League.

I would say we suffer from a similar effect in that the cost of living is so much more than in the case of no attachment to any particular area, players would need to be paid a lot more to come.

£1,000 a week at Orient would get a lot less than £1,000 a week in Carlisle...yet looking at match ticket prices they are quite similar and I bet TV money is as well.

TBH what we should have done as part of the redevelopment of the ground was to have held back a decent chunk of 10-20 flats and made it a private 'Orient' section (ie. only accessible in the lift by key fob or something)....these type of serviced apartments would make it much easier to attract players.