Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Nigel said on the OO Podcast that he is a ball winning centre midfielder and we will not find a better one. Personally never seen him that way, although he is much better at tackling than he was in his first season at the club.

I think he is just a good all rounder.

Hello Cheddar Bob

He’s a bit of an allrounder, but the old phrase, jack of all trades, master of none, comes to mind.

When he came in I thought he was a creative midfielder, able to pick out a pass, but light in the tackle ala Lloyd James. However, last season he stepped up his pressing game and won a fair bit back and was sometimes doing the job of two midfielders.

However, nothing will convince me he is a ball winning midfielder. Having watched Stephen Dawson and Romain Vincelot in recent years, he’s nowhere close. He works hard and that’s why people like him now but he has very little quality.

An all-rounder would imply he might be decent in both the offensive and defensive elements of midfield right?

I don't think he offers much going forward. Not really gonna grab many goals, or provide good service for the striker.
Although to be fair to him, last year more responsibility for that was for Charlie Lee and Clay had to do some of his job as well.

Last year's fit version of Jobi in the first half of the season probably is as close to an all-rounder as we have. Sadly I don't think he will get up to that standard again, as the standard has improved.

Mentioned before that Paddy Osadebe might have been a good reserve defensive midfielder, just look at his goal against us and his assist vs Blackpool last night (https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/s ... d-2-4-pens)

Would we ever get that from our players. Not their fault as it isn't their skillset, but we should be getting in a range of skills.

He is generally an all-rounder who's best assets are winning the ball and securing it. Dawson and Vincelot were box-to-box midfielders rather than ball winners.

Red_Army wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:51 am He is generally an all-rounder who's best assets are winning the ball and securing it. Dawson and Vincelot were box-to-box midfielders rather than ball winners.

Are you suggesting clay is more of a ball winner than Romain?

Clay is not a playmaker, he’s not good enough on the ball for that. Nor is he a defensive/holding midfielder, he’s not disciplined enough for that.

His attributes (post virus) are the sheer amount of work and harrying he gets through.

I still don’t know who you should play alongside him. If you have an Ebou or a Romain as the holding player, he’s not good enough creatively. If you had a play maker a la Lloyd James in there, he’s not going to sit back and offer the defence adequate cover.

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:25 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:51 am He is generally an all-rounder who's best assets are winning the ball and securing it. Dawson and Vincelot were box-to-box midfielders rather than ball winners.

Are you suggesting clay is more of a ball winner than Romain?

Clay is not a playmaker, he’s not good enough on the ball for that. Nor is he a defensive/holding midfielder, he’s not disciplined enough for that.

His attributes (post virus) are the sheer amount of work and harrying he gets through.

I still don’t know who you should play alongside him. If you have an Ebou or a Romain as the holding player, he’s not good enough creatively. If you had a play maker a la Lloyd James in there, he’s not going to sit back and offer the defence adequate cover.

He's got a bit of the Andy Harris about him. Very busy but not very good.

Kind of. But Harris was a more deeper lying player. Clay will always line up more advanced - it was Lee or Jobi - and now Wright - who sit deeper.

All of our centre mids are very one dimensional and all very similar.
It limits our options massively.

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:25 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:51 am He is generally an all-rounder who's best assets are winning the ball and securing it. Dawson and Vincelot were box-to-box midfielders rather than ball winners.

Are you suggesting clay is more of a ball winner than Romain?

Clay is not a playmaker, he’s not good enough on the ball for that. Nor is he a defensive/holding midfielder, he’s not disciplined enough for that.

His attributes (post virus) are the sheer amount of work and harrying he gets through.

I still don’t know who you should play alongside him. If you have an Ebou or a Romain as the holding player, he’s not good enough creatively. If you had a play maker a la Lloyd James in there, he’s not going to sit back and offer the defence adequate cover.

I'm saying that they were the players respective roles. It doesn't mean that Vincelot didn't win the ball, of course he did.

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:29 pm Kind of. But Harris was a more deeper lying player. Clay will always line up more advanced - it was Lee or Jobi - and now Wright - who sit deeper.

Why has Wright played further forward than Clay this season then?

I know he can’t shoot for toffee

Red_Army wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:34 pm

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:29 pm Kind of. But Harris was a more deeper lying player. Clay will always line up more advanced - it was Lee or Jobi - and now Wright - who sit deeper.

Why has Wright played further forward than Clay this season then?

Wright sits relatively deep but also makes runs forward and scores a decent amount for a midfielder.

Wright and Clay too weak as a pairing.

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:25 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:51 am He is generally an all-rounder who's best assets are winning the ball and securing it. Dawson and Vincelot were box-to-box midfielders rather than ball winners.

Are you suggesting clay is more of a ball winner than Romain?

Clay is not a playmaker, he’s not good enough on the ball for that. Nor is he a defensive/holding midfielder, he’s not disciplined enough for that.

His attributes (post virus) are the sheer amount of work and harrying he gets through.

I still don’t know who you should play alongside him. If you have an Ebou or a Romain as the holding player, he’s not good enough creatively. If you had a play maker a la Lloyd James in there, he’s not going to sit back and offer the defence adequate cover.

I never got Lloyd James, got away with it because he was in a good team, but his weaknesses were clear to see in the post-Slade era.

Red_Army wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:34 pm

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:29 pm Kind of. But Harris was a more deeper lying player. Clay will always line up more advanced - it was Lee or Jobi - and now Wright - who sit deeper.

Why has Wright played further forward than Clay this season then?

I've only seen 1 of the 2 league games so far and Wright didn't play further forward.

Tbf he’s playing in a midfield where JMD is playing as a number ten, he has to sit deep.

I am Ross Wumbelton

Vincelot was a great tackler. Tough as nails and could go box to box. He was a different class to Clay. Sounds like Nigel is talking his book a little.

He's not quite a Vincelot or Dawson but the undoubtedly the closest thing we have to that ball winner. However we have no cover or competition for him, which is a really poor place to be in given the amount of time it's been the case (FFS Ling moment incoming)

As above we seem to have 3 players who are that middle ground of not an enforcer but not really a playmaker either. Gorman by sounds of it didn't grasp his opportunity yesterday so unlikely he'll be given the gig on Saturday.

New blood required to shake things up a bit and give us some options and competition in the squad. Sounds a lot like Nigel is trying to talk up the current players to dodge the issue of why no one else has come in.

He’s a better footballer than any of you so called wanabee managers

I think we are looking for a player or two but have not identified anyone who can improve on what we have for the money we wish to pay.

I dare say we will get new players at some point this season. I would prefer that to be before we are in the sh*t and not to get us out of it. But we have budgets to live within and it’s hard to criticise having a strong business model given the trouble other clubs have found themselves.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:20 pm I think we are looking for a player or two but have not identified anyone who can improve on what we have for the money we wish to pay.

I dare say we will get new players at some point this season. I would prefer that to be before we are in the sh*t and not to get us out of it. But we have budgets to live within and it’s hard to criticise having a strong business model given the trouble other clubs have found themselves.

Is it a strong business model if we're already having to trim the squad to bare bones with the best income levels we've had in 20+ years?

Never known the ground so full or so many STs sold. Sponsorship on everything, Dream Team tie-in, back in EFL for TV money, sold £900k+ worth of talent. Only thing we haven't done is an FA cup run, fingers crossed on that one.

If we can't afford a full squad of decent quality now then how does that bode going forward if crowds drop off due to poor results etc?

We paid a fee for Alabi so the club clearly isn’t just looking to cut their losses.

gshaw wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:28 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:20 pm I think we are looking for a player or two but have not identified anyone who can improve on what we have for the money we wish to pay.

I dare say we will get new players at some point this season. I would prefer that to be before we are in the sh*t and not to get us out of it. But we have budgets to live within and it’s hard to criticise having a strong business model given the trouble other clubs have found themselves.

Is it a strong business model if we're already having to trim the squad to bare bones with the best income levels we've had in 20+ years?

Never known the ground so full or so many STs sold. Sponsorship on everything, Dream Team tie-in, back in EFL for TV money, sold £900k+ worth of talent. Only thing we haven't done is an FA cup run, fingers crossed on that one.

If we can't afford a full squad of decent quality now then how does that bode going forward if crowds drop off due to poor results etc?

The club have always said there is a playing budget set at tha start of the season, plus of course contingency. That budget will I’m sure have taken into consideration ST sales, sponsorship, other income as well as expenses like the first team and Academy and no doubt competitive for L2. I’m sure the owners don’t want relegation any more than us.

To use terms like bare bones is nonsense. Thus far we have lost Jobi, Dayton, Turley and for a while Widdowson all of whom will be earning wages. Dennis has come in not match fit. All decent players. Newbies Wilkinson, Angol, Wright and Dennis look solid. Ross as also said we are looking for more. But within set budgets, so money is available.

For me the key is Ross. We all saw what JE was able to do with much the same squad as Davies. Can Ross do the same. I bloody well hope so.