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Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:21 am
by E10EU
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/ ... -dangerous
Putin and Trump love him.
But why would any ordinary British citizen just trying to have a decent, peaceful and secure life vote for him?
For starters: he supports privatised health care (meaning it's for profit).
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 6:01 am
by Adz
He's on his own side, he doesn't give a toss about anyone else, much like Putin and Trump.
As to why anyone would vote for him, same as Trump, a protest vote against the existing system.
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 7:43 am
by DrWindy
E10EU wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:21 am
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/ ... -dangerous
Putin and Trump love him.
But why would any ordinary British citizen just trying to have a decent, peaceful and secure life vote for him?
For starters: he supports privatised health care (meaning it's for profit).
What is wrong with private healthcare? It doesn’t have to be to the detriment of the NHS. If people want to choose to pay for their own treatment you think that should be banned? How strange.
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 8:55 am
by Long slender neck
I got a Reform leaflet through the door titled "The immigration election".
Says it all.
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:05 am
by o-no
DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 7:43 am
E10EU wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:21 am
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/ ... -dangerous
Putin and Trump love him.
But why would any ordinary British citizen just trying to have a decent, peaceful and secure life vote for him?
For starters: he supports privatised health care (meaning it's for profit).
What is wrong with private healthcare? It doesn’t have to be to the detriment of the NHS. If people want to choose to pay for their own treatment you think that should be banned? How strange.
I guess the argument would be the private healthcare providers are using NHS resources, paid for by all of us, which could otherwise have been used in the NHS. As a doctor, I thought you'd have known this
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:10 am
by DrWindy
It’s an argument full of holes. I assume using that logic Uber should also be banned?
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:15 am
by Max B Gold
DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:10 am
It’s an argument full of holes. I assume using that logic Uber should also be banned?
Hardly a comparison and yes Uber should be banned. Their dynamic pricing model is a rip off as is the cut they take from drivers to mention two things.
Are you advocating dynamic pricing for private health care? Private health cannot exist without the use of NHS resourced staff, training, labs etc.
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:17 am
by Max B Gold
Adz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 6:01 am
He's on his own side, he doesn't give a toss about anyone else, much like Putin and Trump.
As to why anyone would vote for him, same as Trump, a protest vote against the existing system.
Other than being in it for themselves can you think of any other reasons they might be in it for?
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:20 am
by DrWindy
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:15 am
DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:10 am
It’s an argument full of holes. I assume using that logic Uber should also be banned?
Hardly a comparison and yes Uber should be banned. Their dynamic pricing model is a rip off as is the cut they take from drivers to mention two things.
Are you advocating dynamic pricing for private health care? Private health cannot exist without the use of NHS resourced staff, training, labs etc.
Have you never been in a private hospital? I am pretty sure I didn’t imagine it.
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:21 am
by Hoover Attack
DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 7:43 am
E10EU wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:21 am
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/ ... -dangerous
Putin and Trump love him.
But why would any ordinary British citizen just trying to have a decent, peaceful and secure life vote for him?
For starters: he supports privatised health care (meaning it's for profit).
What is wrong with private healthcare? It doesn’t have to be to the detriment of the NHS. If people want to choose to pay for their own treatment you think that should be banned? How strange.
Yes. Same with private schooling.
Everyone should be entitled to the same excellent standards of healthcare and education, regardless of how wealthy they or mater and pater are.
See how quickly our hospitals and schools improve when the wealthy don’t have an alternative option.
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:24 am
by Rich Tea Wellin
I obviously don’t agree with anything he says or does. He’s a chancer that plays on the vulnerable for his own benefit.
What I will say is that the nhs will never improve when the conversation around it fundamentally being flawed. It’s too enshrined in peoples minds (and rightly so in lots of ways) but it’s currently a money pit that doesn’t work for many people
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:25 am
by DrWindy
Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:21 am
DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 7:43 am
E10EU wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:21 am
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/ ... -dangerous
Putin and Trump love him.
But why would any ordinary British citizen just trying to have a decent, peaceful and secure life vote for him?
For starters: he supports privatised health care (meaning it's for profit).
What is wrong with private healthcare? It doesn’t have to be to the detriment of the NHS. If people want to choose to pay for their own treatment you think that should be banned? How strange.
Yes. Same with private schooling.
Everyone should be entitled to the same excellent standards of healthcare and education, regardless of how wealthy they or mater and pater are.
See how quickly our hospitals and schools improve when the wealthy don’t have an alternative option.
Of course they should I wholeheartedly agree. But that shouldn’t remove the choice for others.
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:32 am
by Max B Gold
Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:24 am
I obviously don’t agree with anything he says or does. He’s a chancer that plays on the vulnerable for his own benefit.
What I will say is that the nhs will never improve when the conversation around it fundamentally being flawed. It’s too enshrined in peoples minds (and rightly so in lots of ways) but it’s currently a money pit that doesn’t work for many people
An underfunded money pit. Whatever next?
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:33 am
by Hoover Attack
DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:25 am
Of course they should I wholeheartedly agree. But that shouldn’t remove the choice for others.
So long as there is a cop out for the wealthiest and most powerful, there won't be an adequate provision for everyone.
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:36 am
by Max B Gold
Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:33 am
DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:25 am
Of course they should I wholeheartedly agree. But that shouldn’t remove the choice for others.
So long as there is a cop out for the wealthiest and most powerful, there won't be an adequate provision for everyone.
Correct. The very existence of "choice" is detrimental to the NHS. It isn't a choice the vast majority of the population can exercise.
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:39 am
by Hoover Attack
If Sunak had to wait in line at A&E like the rest of us, and the mini Sunaks had to attend their local state school despite the billions of pounds they have, you can guarantee that he'd make sure schools and hospitals were better resourced.
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:43 am
by DrWindy
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:36 am
Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:33 am
DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:25 am
Of course they should I wholeheartedly agree. But that shouldn’t remove the choice for others.
So long as there is a cop out for the wealthiest and most powerful, there won't be an adequate provision for everyone.
Correct. The very existence of "choice" is detrimental to the NHS. It isn't a choice the vast majority of the population can exercise.
It’s not a view I agree with. I think you think that the NHS would be better if the private sector didn’t exist. I don’t think that logic stacks up with any meaningful evidence.
You believe if Uber or taxis were not available then public transport would be better? I don’t think so.
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:49 am
by Dunners
In a theoretical sense, they are absolutely correct. The element of choice, which can only be a afforded to the relatively privileged, will always undermine the basic provision to the masses.
But elite hierarchies emerge in all primate societies, so preventing an element of choice from ever emerging would require a brutal oppression of natural tendencies. And for such brutal oppression to exist will itself require the formation of... an elite.
You see, there is, in fact, another way. It's just that it has always ended up being worse. But maybe next time it will be different.
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:52 am
by Max B Gold
DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:43 am
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:36 am
Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:33 am
So long as there is a cop out for the wealthiest and most powerful, there won't be an adequate provision for everyone.
Correct. The very existence of "choice" is detrimental to the NHS. It isn't a choice the vast majority of the population can exercise.
It’s not a view I agree with. I think you think that the NHS would be better if the private sector didn’t exist. I don’t think that logic stacks up with any meaningful evidence.
You believe if Uber or taxis were not available then public transport would be better? I don’t think so.
The NHS would be better if private medicine did not exist because it leeches off of it whilst not bearing the true cost of using its staff and facilities. For one thing if doctors were not moonlighting and working second jobs they would be available to help reduce NHS waiting lists.
If public transport was free/affordable and reliable it would be better. Its a political choice. Take action to improve it or price people out on to the roads.
Taxis would still exist for the necessary short journeys but properly regulated as regards fares, drivers rights & remuneration etc
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:58 am
by Hoover Attack
Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:49 am
In a theoretical sense, they are absolutely correct. The element of choice, which can only be a afforded to the relatively privileged, will always undermine the basic provision to the masses.
But elite hierarchies emerge in all primate societies, so preventing an element of choice from ever emerging would require a brutal oppression of natural tendencies. And for such brutal oppression to exist will itself require the formation of... an elite.
You see, there is, in fact, another way. It's just that it has always ended up being worse. But maybe next time it will be different.
Does it really take brutal oppression to stop people being selfish c**ts? Is that the only way to move to this other way?
I may be in the minority on here but I like to think of myself as slightly better developed than a chimpanzee. You won't find me strutting around banging my chest, picking poo from my arse and throwing it at those I deem beneath me and stealing their bananas.
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 10:02 am
by DrWindy
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:52 am
DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:43 am
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:36 am
Correct. The very existence of "choice" is detrimental to the NHS. It isn't a choice the vast majority of the population can exercise.
It’s not a view I agree with. I think you think that the NHS would be better if the private sector didn’t exist. I don’t think that logic stacks up with any meaningful evidence.
You believe if Uber or taxis were not available then public transport would be better? I don’t think so.
The NHS would be better if private medicine did not exist because it leeches off of it whilst not bearing the true cost of using its staff and facilities. For one thing if doctors were not moonlighting and working second jobs they would be available to help reduce NHS waiting lists.
If public transport was free/affordable and reliable it would be better. Its a political choice. Take action to improve it or price people out on to the roads.
Taxis would still exist for the necessary short journeys but properly regulated as regards fares, drivers rights & remuneration etc
But the NHS doesn’t have a waiting list or shortages due to a lack of people. It has these things due to a lack of funding. You think the NHS doesn’t receive payments from the private sector for use of their facilities. You think doctors would work more hours on less money if they couldn’t operate privately? Of course not, they would eventually move to do something else where they have the freedom to earn a living how they wish. Your whole theory is too simplistic and just doesn’t stack up to any scrutiny.
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 10:05 am
by Dunners
Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:58 am
Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:49 am
In a theoretical sense, they are absolutely correct. The element of choice, which can only be a afforded to the relatively privileged, will always undermine the basic provision to the masses.
But elite hierarchies emerge in all primate societies, so preventing an element of choice from ever emerging would require a brutal oppression of natural tendencies. And for such brutal oppression to exist will itself require the formation of... an elite.
You see, there is, in fact, another way. It's just that it has always ended up being worse. But maybe next time it will be different.
Does it really take brutal oppression to stop people being selfish c**ts? Is that the only way to move to this other way?
I may be in the minority on here but I like to think of myself as slightly better developed than a chimpanzee. You won't find me strutting around banging my chest, picking poo from my arse and throwing it at those I deem beneath me and stealing their bananas.
You need to get out and there and meet more of "the people".
I reckon you could certainly achieve improvements without brutality. But given enough time and opportunity, any advances will always be threatened with reversals. Best give up hope now, and get on side with the brutal oppressors.
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 10:07 am
by Dunners
As an example, take this anecdote from a Labour MP, about meeting a member of the public who said he wasn’t voting for him because he'd heard that Labour was taxing condoms. This is what we're dealing with.
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 10:14 am
by Hoover Attack
Never happened but heh.
Re: Farage - whose side is he on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 10:17 am
by The Mindsweep
Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 10:07 am
As an example, take this anecdote from a Labour MP, about meeting a member of the public who said he wasn’t voting for him because he'd heard that Labour was taxing condoms. This is what we're dealing with.
Taking condoms is an issue the Religious Right in the US would love to be implemented