Independent Leyton Orient Forum

I believe that Richie is a top, top manager. Would he be as driven if he had a stellar career on the pitch? I think perhaps not. I think he wants his players to benefit from his own experience - could have been top drawer, but lacked something - discipline? Attitude?

Klopp and Wenger were not top players.

I am sure others can think of examples of individuals who HAVE been world-class as both player and manager. That's a challenge, perhaps.

Well the answer is obviously “no”

There's obviously a fair amount of correlation but they are effectively two different skill sets.

I know he talks about not being as focused as he should have as a kid and that's why United let him go, but I think he sorted himself in quick time and achieved as much as his ability would allow him.

Has the memory of Brian Robson's managerial career already been erased?

Zidane? Beckenbauer?

How times have changed: Robson was in the final academic year of pupils who still had the option of finishing education at the age of 15, and in the summer of 1972 he accepted Albion manager Don Howe's offer of a two-year apprenticeship, worth a wage of £5 per week in the first year and £8 per week in the second year.

Interestingly, Robson was replaced at Middlesbrough by Terry Venables - he was a top player/manager.

Can anybody think of any really successful player/managers? Dagleish springs to mind.

Zidane has smashed it. Ancelotti had a great career. Cruyff supposedly reinvented football as both a manager and player. Guardiola obviously was phenomenally successful as both. Simeone brilliant as both, Xavi won a title last season having been arguably the best midfielder of his generation.

I don't think it's a prerequisite but some of the best managers of all time were also brilliant players.

Dalglish

Inherited an incredible Liverpool side which he worsened over a period of time, went to Blackburn when the game was up and spunked Jack Walkers millions, before trashing Keegans legacy at Newcastle.

Don’t forget his return to Liverpool

Don't even remember that?

Replaced Roy Hodgson

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:23 am Dalglish

Inherited an incredible Liverpool side which he worsened over a period of time, went to Blackburn when the game was up and spunked Jack Walkers millions, before trashing Keegans legacy at Newcastle.

Harsh.

I agree the Liverpool side he inherited was top drawer. Those guys were amazing. But credit to him for recognising that and not changing it.

He won the league with Blackburn. Yes he had the money but he bought well. Mourinho at United springs to mind.

He didn’t win anything at Newcastle from what I recall but who has.

Daglish was decent.

When you say he bought well… he bought obvious, and was functional. He hasn’t over achieved anywhere, and when he’s got anything less than brilliant resources, he has failed and seemed out of his depth

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:08 am There's obviously a fair amount of correlation but they are effectively two different skill sets.

I know he talks about not being as focused as he should have as a kid and that's why United let him go, but I think he sorted himself in quick time and achieved as much as his ability would allow him.

the way he tells it, I think he still believes he under-achieved in his playing career. He knows that if he hadn't screwed up at United then he'd have had a much better career overall, and he reckons he didn't get his head together properly until he was mid-20s. You can see it in his career, which actually peaked quite late - regular Championship football in his early 30s, when his early 20s he was scrapping to get out of the basement

DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:32 am

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:23 am Dalglish

Inherited an incredible Liverpool side which he worsened over a period of time, went to Blackburn when the game was up and spunked Jack Walkers millions, before trashing Keegans legacy at Newcastle.

Harsh.

I agree the Liverpool side he inherited was top drawer. Those guys were amazing. But credit to him for recognising that and not changing it.

He won the league with Blackburn. Yes he had the money but he bought well. Mourinho at United springs to mind.

He didn’t win anything at Newcastle from what I recall but who has.

Daglish was decent.

The only decent thing was his timing and getting out when he knew the game was up.

One hell of a player, though.

He won the double with Liverpool I believe.

He went head to head with Fergie at his peak and won the EPL.

Admittedly didn’t win anything at Newcastle but had them in the mix.

Plenty of managers have been around for the last thirty years who have done an awful lot less.

I’m not a massive fan, but I do think you’re being incredibly harsh.

Martin O’Neill I think would be regarded as a decent player and very decent manager, yet I don’t recall him winning anything, yet you say Daglish was no good. You’ve lost me.

Was great that a side like Blackburn won but they massively outspent everyone else when buying, as CEB says, pretty obvious players, and then did their best to choke before Utd let them off on the final day.

DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:50 am Martin O’Neill I think would be regarded as a decent player and very decent manager, yet I don’t recall him winning anything, yet you say Daglish was no good. You’ve lost me.

O'Neill won 15 trophies.

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:37 am When you say he bought well… he bought obvious, and was functional. He hasn’t over achieved anywhere, and when he’s got anything less than brilliant resources, he has failed and seemed out of his depth

Haha, I am not a Daglish fan but he got Shearer when Ferguson couldn’t. He made David Speedie a figurehead when he’d done nothing anywhere. He bought Sherwood for peanuts and made him a hell of a player. Same with Wilcox, Lesaux. Batty. I could go on. You don’t win the EPL if you can’t manage and have tactical nous. It’s the top level.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:55 am

DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:50 am Martin O’Neill I think would be regarded as a decent player and very decent manager, yet I don’t recall him winning anything, yet you say Daglish was no good. You’ve lost me.

O'Neill won 15 trophies.

Sorry, I mean as a manager.

DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:57 am

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:37 am When you say he bought well… he bought obvious, and was functional. He hasn’t over achieved anywhere, and when he’s got anything less than brilliant resources, he has failed and seemed out of his depth

Haha, I am not a Daglish fan but he got Shearer when Ferguson couldn’t. He made David Speedie a figurehead when he’d done nothing anywhere. He bought Sherwood for peanuts and made him a hell of a player. Same with Wilcox, Lesaux. Batty. I could go on. You don’t win the EPL if you can’t manage and have tactical nous. It’s the top level.

Speedie had played almost 250 Division 1 matches for Chelsea and Coventry as well as scoring 6 in 12 for Liverpool before he went to Blackburn - for just the one season in Division 2.

DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:57 am

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:55 am

DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:50 am Martin O’Neill I think would be regarded as a decent player and very decent manager, yet I don’t recall him winning anything, yet you say Daglish was no good. You’ve lost me.

O'Neill won 15 trophies.

Sorry, I mean as a manager.

That is as a manager.

I think what you have to take into account whilst discussing this subject,is that nowadays these so called top teams have to many chiefs involved. ie DoF. Back in the day managers picked their own players (Brian Clough) for example. Point is do managers nowadays have a say? You only have to look at Chelsea to see what a balls up they have made.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:01 am

DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:57 am

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:37 am When you say he bought well… he bought obvious, and was functional. He hasn’t over achieved anywhere, and when he’s got anything less than brilliant resources, he has failed and seemed out of his depth

Haha, I am not a Daglish fan but he got Shearer when Ferguson couldn’t. He made David Speedie a figurehead when he’d done nothing anywhere. He bought Sherwood for peanuts and made him a hell of a player. Same with Wilcox, Lesaux. Batty. I could go on. You don’t win the EPL if you can’t manage and have tactical nous. It’s the top level.

Speedie had played almost 250 Division 1 matches for Chelsea and Coventry as well as scoring 6 in 12 for Liverpool before he went to Blackburn - for just the one season in Division 2.

Come on Speedie was ordinary at best. You’re not suggesting he was top class surely?