Independent Leyton Orient Forum

The Orient board have a 3 year plan with an optimistic view of getting us into the championship. To survive in the championship we need to increase the annual playing budget by several million pounds . I cannot see where this extra money can be achieved without interesting more board members. With capacity crowds of over 8000 per match this season we are still going to incur according to Nigel losses of over £1.5 m this season and that’s with a budget of the middle order of teams in L1 . Yesterday I read that Ipswich have received offers of around 100k for El Miz from 4 clubs that have been rejected. We were not even one of those clubs probably because we cannot even compete at that level with the remainder of this seasons budget. So there is a risk we might be losing one of best players very soon.With the majority of clubs in the championship losing around 10 m every season. I cannot see us anywhere near surviving at that level. What are the thoughts of the forum

On the revenue raising side Mark Devlin has brought loads of new sponsors in, plus the electronic advertising and sell out most weeks so not much else you can do at that point to bring money in.

The TV money was meant to have gone up as well yet we're still struggling, given FFP is meant to keep that at a proportion of turnover what are the other costs that are the pain points? Ground rent?

I have no knowledge on this but surely there are ways to increase capacity, and subsequently revenue, with the current ground footprint?

I’m sure a lot (read all) is down to SAG sign off but if away fans were moved to the North Stand that frees up the segregation so an increase in seats.

Also, and I appreciate there is HSE implications and access to exits etc but could VERY small temporary gantry seats - a la Gillingham - be put in the Papa Johns dugout?

What about filling in / raising parts of the TJ stand? I’ve only sat in it once but is part of that trench wasted space and possibly free to use?

Just wondered if another 500 or so capacity would be possible with the relevant bodies sign off. The relocation of away support (particularly smaller followings (such as Fleetwood) seems like such a quick and easy(ier) win.

Most will have gone on League 1 wages against L2 wages last season.

Seriously need to up our capacity at BR, went on the site Tuesday and they were already out of tickets for Blackpool today

moonwalk19 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:37 am The Orient board have a 3 year plan with an optimistic view of getting us into the championship. To survive in the championship we need to increase the annual playing budget by several million pounds . I cannot see where this extra money can be achieved without interesting more board members. With capacity crowds of over 8000 per match this season we are still going to incur according to Nigel losses of over £1.5 m this season and that’s with a budget of the middle order of teams in L1 . Yesterday I read that Ipswich have received offers of around 100k for El Miz from 4 clubs that have been rejected. We were not even one of those clubs probably because we cannot even compete at that level with the remainder of this seasons budget. So there is a risk we might be losing one of best players very soon.With the majority of clubs in the championship losing around 10 m every season. I cannot see us anywhere near surviving at that level. What are the thoughts of the forum

That’s a really good question, imo the only way we can stay in Leyton is (wait for it) by knocking down the east stand and building a two tier stand and then knocking down the west stand and doing the same,however thanks to money bag Barry we are limited,both new stands would have to be the same height as the others but a different design in some way plus thanks to old money bags building behind the goals is now impossible,which I may remember at the time spiv face said we could do but thanks to him building flats behind ain’t going to happen. Having said all this the other alternative is moving elsewhere More controversial from me is El Miz. He’s a good player but I think he has now found his level. Weather he has been over played ? but to me he’s lost pace or lacks it. It would be a miss but as one door closes another opens and I’m sure we can find a replacement or even better perhaps one of our vast pool of midfielders can step up. If he were that exceptional Ipswich wouldn’t let him go.

moonwalk19 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:37 am The Orient board have a 3 year plan with an optimistic view of getting us into the championship. To survive in the championship we need to increase the annual playing budget by several million pounds . I cannot see where this extra money can be achieved without interesting more board members. With capacity crowds of over 8000 per match this season we are still going to incur according to Nigel losses of over £1.5 m this season and that’s with a budget of the middle order of teams in L1 . Yesterday I read that Ipswich have received offers of around 100k for El Miz from 4 clubs that have been rejected. We were not even one of those clubs probably because we cannot even compete at that level with the remainder of this seasons budget. So there is a risk we might be losing one of best players very soon.With the majority of clubs in the championship losing around 10 m every season. I cannot see us anywhere near surviving at that level. What are the thoughts of the forum

It's always we need until it actually comes to paying.

You say the club need extra income so what are you doing about it? Are you giving extra funds to the club? Or do you expect others to do so instead yo satisfy your demands.

moonwalk19 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:37 am The Orient board have a 3 year plan with an optimistic view of getting us into the championship. To survive in the championship we need to increase the annual playing budget by several million pounds . I cannot see where this extra money can be achieved without interesting more board members. With capacity crowds of over 8000 per match this season we are still going to incur according to Nigel losses of over £1.5 m this season and that’s with a budget of the middle order of teams in L1 . Yesterday I read that Ipswich have received offers of around 100k for El Miz from 4 clubs that have been rejected. We were not even one of those clubs probably because we cannot even compete at that level with the remainder of this seasons budget. So there is a risk we might be losing one of best players very soon.With the majority of clubs in the championship losing around 10 m every season. I cannot see us anywhere near surviving at that level. What are the thoughts of the forum

In my opinion Barry Hearn building flats in every corner and not building an extra tier in each stand is the reason we are in this predicament.In my opinion the only alternative is moving to a new ground if we are to progress to the Championship for a sustainable length of time with the chance maybe one day of the Premiership.
I was fortunate enough to watch us in the old second division (Championship) and see us promoted to the old first division (Premiership) albeit for only one season.
Having watched the O’s in the old 2nd Division (Championship) for many years , that is where I believe our rightful place should be and always live in hope that’s where we will return.But I can’t see it ever happening for a sustainable length of time until either capacity in our current ground is massively increased or we move ground and that of course will only be achieved with a massive financial investment in our club, otherwise we will achieve nothing for the loyal fans.

Points of note.

Television revenues will increase next season for all efl clubs.

Ground- East stand is limited to 85% of capacity by Waltham Forest as it is a wooden stand. Secondly, we cannot knock the west stand down as we only have a lease of 70% of it, for which we only pay £1/annum. Thirdly the south and west stands were built with an option of a 2nd tier, obviously with the flats the south cannot have this now. So very limited in how we can increase capacity.

moonwalk19 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:37 am The Orient board have a 3 year plan with an optimistic view of getting us into the championship. To survive in the championship we need to increase the annual playing budget by several million pounds . I cannot see where this extra money can be achieved without interesting more board members. With capacity crowds of over 8000 per match this season we are still going to incur according to Nigel losses of over £1.5 m this season and that’s with a budget of the middle order of teams in L1 . Yesterday I read that Ipswich have received offers of around 100k for El Miz from 4 clubs that have been rejected. We were not even one of those clubs probably because we cannot even compete at that level with the remainder of this seasons budget. So there is a risk we might be losing one of best players very soon.With the majority of clubs in the championship losing around 10 m every season. I cannot see us anywhere near surviving at that level. What are the thoughts of the forum

My take is that it would be lovely if we had a ground filled with 15000 fans every home game, but we don’t and realistically we are unlikely to get those sorts of numbers even if we had the capacity. So coming into L1 the reality is we can’t compete with the big boys in this division at the moment. If we make some small adjustments we might get in a few hundred more into the stadium as it is but it’s not going to go towards upping the playing budget probably and understandably go towards reducing losses.

So the challenges are:

Find a larger ground, we would all like to stay in Leyton but is it possible, I doubt it. And where would we find £30 million plus to buy the land and build a ground.

Develop Brisbane Road, Not likely with blocks of flats in each corner and behind the North and South stands, we could spend millions of pounds adding at most 2 or 3 thousand seats and it’s not viable.It would cost millions and it not even a ground we own.

Increase the playing budget revenue through commercial activity,. It’s doubtful in the extreme the boards priority has always been to run at break even so I’m guessing that’s where any extra commercial revenue will go. Despite what people may think Devlin isn’t pulling up trees and I believe is missing financial targets set by the board.

I believe It will be possible to build a squad to challenge for the play offs but will probably take a few seasons and need some shrewd wheeling and dealing similar to what Slade achieved previously in L1 in his time here if we are to do it. This wouldI also take what most fans don’t have these days - patience.

We need to move to a different ground. This is a real problem within the current borough, but unless we solve this problem, we will never rise higher than league 1.
A ground holding about 22,000 would be a starting point, with the ability to add capacity if the club should ever get into the Premier league.
Seems a far off pipedream at present, but Brentford, Brighton, & Bournemouth were all league 2 teams 20 years or less ago, and are all now Premier league teams

Still's Carenae wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 11:57 am Points of note.

Television revenues will increase next season for all efl clubs.

Ground- East stand is limited to 85% of capacity by Waltham Forest as it is a wooden stand. Secondly, we cannot knock the west stand down as we only have a lease of 70% of it, for which we only pay £1/annum. Thirdly the south and west stands were built with an option of a 2nd tier, obviously with the flats the south cannot have this now. So very limited in how we can increase capacity.

Interesting thanks for the input,

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:11 pm We need to move to a different ground. This is a real problem within the current borough, but unless we solve this problem, we will never rise higher than league 1.
A ground holding about 22,000 would be a starting point, with the ability to add capacity if the club should ever get into the Premier league.
Seems a far off pipedream at present, but Brentford, Brighton, & Bournemouth were all league 2 teams 20 years or less ago, and are all now Premier league teams

Bournemouth & Luton both Premier league & under 13000 capacity's

PoundhillO wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 11:39 am

moonwalk19 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:37 am The Orient board have a 3 year plan with an optimistic view of getting us into the championship. To survive in the championship we need to increase the annual playing budget by several million pounds . I cannot see where this extra money can be achieved without interesting more board members. With capacity crowds of over 8000 per match this season we are still going to incur according to Nigel losses of over £1.5 m this season and that’s with a budget of the middle order of teams in L1 . Yesterday I read that Ipswich have received offers of around 100k for El Miz from 4 clubs that have been rejected. We were not even one of those clubs probably because we cannot even compete at that level with the remainder of this seasons budget. So there is a risk we might be losing one of best players very soon.With the majority of clubs in the championship losing around 10 m every season. I cannot see us anywhere near surviving at that level. What are the thoughts of the forum

In my opinion Barry Hearn building flats in every corner and not building an extra tier in each stand is the reason we are in this predicament.In my opinion the only alternative is moving to a new ground if we are to progress to the Championship for a sustainable length of time with the chance maybe one day of the Premiership.
I was fortunate enough to watch us in the old second division (Championship) and see us promoted to the old first division (Premiership) albeit for only one season.
Having watched the O’s in the old 2nd Division (Championship) for many years , that is where I believe our rightful place should be and always live in hope that’s where we will return.But I can’t see it ever happening for a sustainable length of time until either capacity in our current ground is massively increased or we move ground and that of course will only be achieved with a massive financial investment in our club, otherwise we will achieve nothing for the loyal fans.

I agree .Although it's the most expensive option I can't see any other alternative than moving to a new ground . Thanks to Barry Hearn with building all those flats I think Brisbane Rd is now pretty much knackered if we're thinking about hosting Championship football .

Joe315 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:30 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:11 pm We need to move to a different ground. This is a real problem within the current borough, but unless we solve this problem, we will never rise higher than league 1.
A ground holding about 22,000 would be a starting point, with the ability to add capacity if the club should ever get into the Premier league.
Seems a far off pipedream at present, but Brentford, Brighton, & Bournemouth were all league 2 teams 20 years or less ago, and are all now Premier league teams

Bournemouth & Luton both Premier league & under 13000 capacity's

Fair enough about Bournemouth but isn't Luton looking at moving to a new ground . ?

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:38 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:30 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:11 pm We need to move to a different ground. This is a real problem within the current borough, but unless we solve this problem, we will never rise higher than league 1.
A ground holding about 22,000 would be a starting point, with the ability to add capacity if the club should ever get into the Premier league.
Seems a far off pipedream at present, but Brentford, Brighton, & Bournemouth were all league 2 teams 20 years or less ago, and are all now Premier league teams

Bournemouth & Luton both Premier league & under 13000 capacity's

Fair enough about Bournemouth but isn't Luton looking at moving to a new ground . ?

The point is that they made it in their current ground

Hearn not only took the money of Orient's present but also their future by taking the commercial revenue and building the extra flats behind the goals preventing any further expansion. Yet some still defend his dealings, the mind boggles.

We haven't made seriously good money on transfer fees for a decade now and even then Odubajo & Zakuani were very rare exceptions to the rule so can't see us doing anything significant to generate profits on that front.

Even with those two the club saw no benefit from the fees with the former going to Hearn's (useless) lawyer friends and the latter supposedly going to either Hearn or Beelzebub

Re: El Miz he doesn't look as spectacular this season though as someone on Ipswich forum said that's likely he's at the right level for ability so a CDM won't stand out as much. I'm between the "you don't know what you got till it's gone" and "we'll find someone else and move on". Concern will be whether our slow moving recruitment team get someone of sufficient quality in time if he moves late in the window. One thing for sure our current CM options aren't strong enough to cover the gap if there were no replacement.

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:38 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:30 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:11 pm We need to move to a different ground. This is a real problem within the current borough, but unless we solve this problem, we will never rise higher than league 1.
A ground holding about 22,000 would be a starting point, with the ability to add capacity if the club should ever get into the Premier league.
Seems a far off pipedream at present, but Brentford, Brighton, & Bournemouth were all league 2 teams 20 years or less ago, and are all now Premier league teams

Bournemouth & Luton both Premier league & under 13000 capacity's

Fair enough about Bournemouth but isn't Luton looking at moving to a new ground . ?

Luton currently play at a 10000 odd capacity stadium
In the Premier League.

Story of O wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:40 pm

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:38 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:30 pm

Bournemouth & Luton both Premier league & under 13000 capacity's

Fair enough about Bournemouth but isn't Luton looking at moving to a new ground . ?

The point is that they made it in their current ground

Yes , that's a fair point .

Joe315 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:53 pm

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:38 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:30 pm

Bournemouth & Luton both Premier league & under 13000 capacity's

Fair enough about Bournemouth but isn't Luton looking at moving to a new ground . ?

Luton currently play at a 10000 odd capacity stadium
In the Premier League.

That's why they want a new ground . Their current one isn't big enough .

gshaw wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:43 pm Hearn not only took the money of Orient's present but also their future by taking the commercial revenue and building the extra flats behind the goals preventing any further expansion. Yet some still defend his dealings, the mind boggles.

We haven't made seriously good money on transfer fees for a decade now and even then Odubajo & Zakuani were very rare exceptions to the rule so can't see us doing anything significant to generate profits on that front.

Even with those two the club saw no benefit from the fees with the former going to Hearn's (useless) lawyer friends and the latter supposedly going to either Hearn or Beelzebub

Re: El Miz he doesn't look as spectacular this season though as someone on Ipswich forum said that's likely he's at the right level for ability so a CDM won't stand out as much. I'm between the "you don't know what you got till it's gone" and "we'll find someone else and move on". Concern will be whether our slow moving recruitment team get someone of sufficient quality in time if he moves late in the window. One thing for sure our current CM options aren't strong enough to cover the gap if there were no replacement.

We do appear to be slow in the transfer market compared to most other clubs . If El-Miz does leave that could prove to be our achilles heel .

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 1:02 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:53 pm

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:38 pm

Fair enough about Bournemouth but isn't Luton looking at moving to a new ground . ?

Luton currently play at a 10000 odd capacity stadium
In the Premier League.

That's why they want a new ground . Their current one isn't big enough .

But they reached the Premier League while having under 11000 capacity.

Joe315 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 1:05 pm

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 1:02 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:53 pm

Luton currently play at a 10000 odd capacity stadium
In the Premier League.

That's why they want a new ground . Their current one isn't big enough .

But they reached the Premier League while having under 11000 capacity.

Yes, I know .

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 1:11 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 1:05 pm

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 1:02 pm

That's why they want a new ground . Their current one isn't big enough .

But they reached the Premier League while having under 11000 capacity.

Yes, I know .

Good.

What a great problem to have, eh? 7 years ago we were falling like a stone; 5 years ago we were looking at the Conference (South) and now we have more fans packing into our ground than ever.

I want us to do the best we can with whatever we have or might develop. Plenty of examples of those that shot for the stars and landed in sh*t.

Not just COYOS, but long live the O's!!