Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Well played to him, Click on to read both paragraphs

Hope some of the people who were so quick to tear into him have the courage to acknowledge they probably own him an apology.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 10:31 am Hope some of the people who were so quick to tear into him have the courage to acknowledge they probably own him an apology.

Of course they won’t!

I think it will be psychologically easier for them to just claim he's lying, so they can hold onto their initial emotional reaction.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 10:31 am Hope some of the people who were so quick to tear into him have the courage to acknowledge they probably own him an apology.

Doubt that very much.

It would not have harmed Richie to apologise for the misunderstanding whereby he (unwittingly perhaps) appeared to be ordering fans off the pitch to enable the game to resume.
That’s what it looked like from where I watched it.

Looking back now I feel a bit sick that the tannoy announcements kept focussing on the game continuing. I know they had no choice in keeping the crowd informed but it felt like the man’s life did not matter. I now wish I had not waited about like that - though I just wanted to see the man safely away into the ambulance.

The whole situation makes you realise that life is fragile

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 10:31 am Hope some of the people who were so quick to tear into him have the courage to acknowledge they probably own him an apology.

At no point did I think that Richie knew the full details of the situation and was still desperate to finish the match.

I do however maintain the opinion that trying to usher fans off of a pitch who were trying to stop a game due to a fan reviving CPR with the Justin Edinburgh stand of all places as a backdrop is a seriously bad look.

The Reverend wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 12:34 pm

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 10:31 am Hope some of the people who were so quick to tear into him have the courage to acknowledge they probably own him an apology.

At no point did I think that Richie knew the full details of the situation and was still desperate to finish the match.

I do however maintain the opinion that trying to usher fans off of a pitch who were trying to stop a game due to a fan reviving CPR with the Justin Edinburgh stand of all places as a backdrop is a seriously bad look.

That doesn't make sense. You can't believe he didn't know what was going on AND believe it's a bad look him trying to get fans to leave the pitch (whilst he didn't know what was going on).

If he didn't know what was going on, it's perfectly reasonable for him to ask fans to leave the pitch.

"I'm going to simultaneously hold two opposing positions just so I don't have to admit I might have been wrong"

It seems a bit odd. If the 4th official was worried about safety, he should have tried stopping the game.

Be nice if there was a statement from him to fans via official means rather than some article behind a paywall.

Btw I have no doubt RW intentions were good with the information he had but just to provide clarity for those who dont

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 12:50 pm "I'm going to simultaneously hold two opposing positions just so I don't have to admit I might have been wrong"

Is the concept of understanding that the optics of a situation may look worse than the reality of them genuinely something that you’re struggling with?

The Reverend wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 4:18 pm

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 12:50 pm "I'm going to simultaneously hold two opposing positions just so I don't have to admit I might have been wrong"

Is the concept of understanding that the optics of a situation may look worse than the reality of them genuinely something that you’re struggling with?

Why do you keep doing this? Isn't it tiring?

In common parlance, Reverend, the idea of a behaviour being a “bad look” is a criticism of someone where it is implicit that they could and should have done something different with the knowledge available. Eg: “oh man, admitting to buying the Laurence Fox album on your tinder bio is a bad look”

It’s not synonymous with saying “that looked bad, but he wasn’t to know” (but I suspect someone else will be along in a minute to pretend that it is)

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 4:30 pm

The Reverend wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 4:18 pm

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 12:50 pm "I'm going to simultaneously hold two opposing positions just so I don't have to admit I might have been wrong"

Is the concept of understanding that the optics of a situation may look worse than the reality of them genuinely something that you’re struggling with?

Why do you keep doing this? Isn't it tiring?

It is for me and I'm renowned for my Boardin' stamina and pig headedness

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 4:44 pm In common parlance, Reverend, the idea of a behaviour being a “bad look” is a criticism of someone where it is implicit that they could and should have done something different with the knowledge available. Eg: “oh man, admitting to buying the Laurence Fox album on your tinder bio is a bad look”

It’s not synonymous with saying “that looked bad, but he wasn’t to know” (but I suspect someone else will be along in a minute to pretend that it is)

Maybe if I rephrase it then the hard of thinking on here will understand the point I’ve been making:

If I were Richie Wellens and I knew that there was footage of me trying to usher fans off of the pitch who were desperately trying to stop a match being played whilst a fan was receiving CPR, all taking place in the shadow of the Justin Edinburgh Stand of all places, I’d sure as hell want to come out and clarify exactly what was going through my head at the time, which I’m sure was well meaning.

That better?

That’s not so much a rephrase as a case of saying a completely different thing. Maybe the person who is hard of thinking is the person who says things that don’t adequately summarise his point?

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 9:31 pm That’s not so much a rephrase as a case of saying a completely different thing. Maybe the person who is hard of thinking is the person who says things that don’t adequately summarise his point?

It’s what I’ve been saying all along. In what way is that “completely different”?

The Reverend wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 9:33 pm

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 9:31 pm That’s not so much a rephrase as a case of saying a completely different thing. Maybe the person who is hard of thinking is the person who says things that don’t adequately summarise his point?

It’s what I’ve been saying all along. In what way is that “completely different”?

Wow this is getting very nuanced. Your initial posts kind of make it seem as if Richie was doing something wrong, or looked wrong, which required explaination or apology.

However if you are just saying that based on what he knew at the time his actions were fine, but just could look bad then I don’t really see what he needs to explain at all.

I don’t think anyone reasonable would think Richie knew someone was dying in the stands but still wanted any concerned fans to clear the pitch so the match could continue. So to my mind there is no interesting discussion worth having on Richie’s actions.

To my mind the only issues to consider are:

What are the systems in place for fans and stewards to communicate medical emergencies in the stands?

Were these followed and was aid rendered in as timely a manner as possible?

Second to this is how information is communicated to the referee to enable him to stop the game, if needed. Stopping the game, although it should sometimes be done, (would it be done for an ill fan on a concourse or in one of the bars?) seems secondary to ensuring fans can obtain speedy and effective first aid.
It does seem that fans coming on to the pitch to approach the referee, even with the best intentions, might make things more confused and tie up resources needed elsewhere, especially in a wider emergency.

Are people’s concern around stopping the game, and how it was stopped more around respect for the person in crisis, or in regards to him receiving the best help? If the former then I would suggest the points I raise above should carry more weight and if the latter maybe someone can explain how stopping the game quickly ensures better care. The only practical difference I can think stopping the game makes is clearing fans away to allow easier access, but even this seems debatable.
Anyway sorry for the long post….

Richie knew what was going on, he says as much. Bit puzzled why he considers himself a part time steward.

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 7:38 am Richie knew what was going on, he says as much. Bit puzzled why he considers himself a part time steward.

Is it because fans might actually listen to the manager/players of their own team, rather than stewards or match officials?