Independent Leyton Orient Forum

It looks like it's about to be confirmed that the Birmingham to Manchester section will be cancelled.

£100billion over 15 years. 13 of which have been under Conservative administration.

The UK has no claim to being a serious country.

Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 1:07 pm It looks like it's about to be confirmed that the Birmingham to Manchester section will be cancelled.

£100billion over 15 years. 13 of which have been under Conservative administration.

The UK has no claim to being a serious country.

Is it still stopping this end at Ye Olde Oak or whatever the place is called or all the way to Euston?

No idea. But the fact that not connecting it to Euston is even an option is, in itself, damning of the project.

It was always a lemon, from conception to design to implementation. The huge economic gains were always pie in the sky. What a shower of sh-ite this whole project has been.

We seem to excell in these huge cost, never gonna happen, never gonna work projects. The NHS universal IT system springs to mind as does the huge cost of the failed Covid track and trace.

I don't know why the government doesn't just deliver wheelbarrow loads of cash to the big Consultancy firms. It would be cheaper in the long run.

If done right, it would have brought huge benefits across the rail network due to increasing capacity on branch lines and shifting more freight from road to rail. But of course it wasn't done right.

Meanwhile, look at similar rail infrastructure projects delivered successfully in France, Spain, China, and even in the USA (where they hate rail travel). We're a joke.

Imagine taking the busiest station in one of the worlds most economically productive areas with some of the highest land values you'll find anywhere, spending billions on acquiring properties around that station and levelling them, then deciding to leave it as an indefinite crater with mothballed buildings and massive vacant building sites. Not only that, but this is the station that most investors visiting the UK would have to use to get a train to the Midlands and north of England.

It's astonishing how badly they've f*cked this and yet are acting like this is a principled stand against some completely unpredictable, extraneous event they have had no control over.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 1:59 pm Imagine taking the busiest station in one of the worlds most economically productive areas with some of the highest land values you'll find anywhere, spending billions on acquiring properties around that station and levelling them, then deciding to leave it as an indefinite crater with mothballed buildings and massive vacant building sites. Not only that, but this is the station that most investors visiting the UK would have to use to get a train to the Midlands and north of England.

It's astonishing how badly they've f*cked this and yet are acting like this is a principled stand against some completely unpredictable, extraneous event they have had no control over.

Yes , the government is committed now so it’s got to finish it or it’s been a complete waste of money

A decision to cut one's losses even after a huge expenditure is sometimes the braver decision, even if controversial or unpopular. But I think we're just too far in the hole on this and too much has been spent to justify bailing out. It's past the point of no return, to do anything other than see it through is pure vandalism, economic and otherwise.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 2:24 pm A decision to cut one's losses even after a huge expenditure is sometimes the braver decision, even if controversial or unpopular. But I think we're just too far in the hole on this and too much has been spent to justify bailing out. It's past the point of no return, to do anything other than see it through is pure vandalism, economic and otherwise.

How are the rail companies paying for this work?

A Tory on Politics Live today at lunchtime, was bemoaning the fact that these sort of projects go way over the budget. He said that if the French do it OK, why cant we? Perhaps we should have asked the French Government to project manage it for us.
Could be though, even the French could stop the Tory mates scrabbling to get their noses in the trough.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 2:24 pm A decision to cut one's losses even after a huge expenditure is sometimes the braver decision, even if controversial or unpopular. But I think we're just too far in the hole on this and too much has been spent to justify bailing out. It's past the point of no return, to do anything other than see it through is pure vandalism, economic and otherwise.

The signal it gives is that there is no point listening to what the British state says it will do because it probably won't happen. The Tories are absolutely tanking our reputation internationally. Talking about using the cash to deal with potholes and banning 20mph speed limits in urban areas isn't the sort of conversation a serious governing party has.

The Tories have also managed to confirm this, whilst holding a conference in a converted railway station in Manchester.

The railways in this country have never recovered from the Beeching closures - and that was 60 years ago. Whilst most other advanced nations have continually updated their public transport infrastructure, the UK has specialised in announcing numerous major projects whilst delivering next to f*** all. HS2 would've been obsolete by the time it was built even if on target. Which it never has been.

It's merely symptomatic of the managed (or chaotic dependent upon your viewpoint) decline of the UK since the late 1950's. Sooner or later, people might start noticing that it's successive neo-liberal governments that are the cause of this place being a broken shithole rather than brown people in boats.

No they won't. Because they are incredibly stupid.

On a lighter note, the Scottish Government has just started a 6 month trial scheme where all fares are off-peak. In an effort to encourage people to use the train. My return ticket to Edinburgh tomorrow was only £11.60 instead of the £18.60 Anytime Return I would normally have to buy if one of the legs on "on-peak".
I don't like the SNP government much, but this seems like a clever thing to do. I hope it is successful.

It helps, of course, that our train service is now State controlled.

WE already had HS2 until 1963, it was called the Great Central and would've answered all the questions used to justify HS2 and for a tiny fraction of the money already spent.

Or we could have invested in full electrification of the network.

I had to double check this to make sure it was right, but just to be clear....

They have spent £100billion over 15 years building 140 miles of track from Birmingham to Old Oak Common (near North Acton). Basically, the Brummies now have easier access to Wormwood Scrubs.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 3:14 pm On a lighter note, the Scottish Government has just started a 6 month trial scheme where all fares are off-peak. In an effort to encourage people to use the train. My return ticket to Edinburgh tomorrow was only £11.60 instead of the £18.60 Anytime Return I would normally have to buy if one of the legs on "on-peak".
I don't like the SNP government much, but this seems like a clever thing to do. I hope it is successful.

It helps, of course, that our train service is now State controlled.

Someone will be along anytime now with the same old bollocks about how sh*t the trains / British Rail was in the 70's etc etc....

Admin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 3:46 pm

StillSpike wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 3:14 pm On a lighter note, the Scottish Government has just started a 6 month trial scheme where all fares are off-peak. In an effort to encourage people to use the train. My return ticket to Edinburgh tomorrow was only £11.60 instead of the £18.60 Anytime Return I would normally have to buy if one of the legs on "on-peak".
I don't like the SNP government much, but this seems like a clever thing to do. I hope it is successful.

It helps, of course, that our train service is now State controlled.

Someone will be along anytime now with the same old bollocks about how sh*t the trains / British Rail was in the 70's etc etc....

I blame that little pri<k Ronnie Corbett. There's an entire generation or two who were drip-fed a constant line of "gags" about British Rail sandwiches.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 3:49 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 3:46 pm

StillSpike wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 3:14 pm On a lighter note, the Scottish Government has just started a 6 month trial scheme where all fares are off-peak. In an effort to encourage people to use the train. My return ticket to Edinburgh tomorrow was only £11.60 instead of the £18.60 Anytime Return I would normally have to buy if one of the legs on "on-peak".
I don't like the SNP government much, but this seems like a clever thing to do. I hope it is successful.

It helps, of course, that our train service is now State controlled.

Someone will be along anytime now with the same old bollocks about how sh*t the trains / British Rail was in the 70's etc etc....

I blame that little pri<k Ronnie Corbett. There's an entire generation or two who were drip-fed a constant line of "gags" about British Rail sandwiches.

Those were the days when you could get "a wee biscuit" on the trains.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 3:49 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 3:46 pm

StillSpike wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 3:14 pm On a lighter note, the Scottish Government has just started a 6 month trial scheme where all fares are off-peak. In an effort to encourage people to use the train. My return ticket to Edinburgh tomorrow was only £11.60 instead of the £18.60 Anytime Return I would normally have to buy if one of the legs on "on-peak".
I don't like the SNP government much, but this seems like a clever thing to do. I hope it is successful.

It helps, of course, that our train service is now State controlled.

Someone will be along anytime now with the same old bollocks about how sh*t the trains / British Rail was in the 70's etc etc....

I blame that little pri<k Ronnie Corbett. There's an entire generation or two who were drip-fed a constant line of "gags" about British Rail sandwiches.

To be fair, he did wear lovely jumpers though.

In 1970, when our Railways still belonged to us, for the first time ever, a Wembley Cup Final finished in a draw even after extra time. The FA decided that the replay would be at the Old Trafford Manchester on a Wednesday evening at 7.30. I was fortunate enough to have been present at both battles ( sorry I meant matches ). Trains started leaving Euston at about 2.30 PM at ten minutes intervals. Your ticket was coloured to match your train departure. There were no hold-ups. About 30,000 + Chelsea fans were whisked there. As soon as feet hit the platforms at Manchester Piccadilly, we were ushered onto another train to Old Trafford. The station was directly opposite the Stretford End, which Chelsea took for the first time ever ( Oh! There were no United fans ). After the never to be doubted victory ( despite Leeds attempt to assassinate Bonetti ): BR whisked us back home straight after the match, minimum fuss & no delays. I had my motor scooter waiting for me at Euston & I was back in my bed before 3.
Should Orient ever end up in such a match nowadays, they'd have problems getting us to Wembley.

Milano wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 3:30 pm WE already had HS2 until 1963, it was called the Great Central and would've answered all the questions used to justify HS2 and for a tiny fraction of the money already spent.

So true

Orient Punxx wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 5:57 am

Milano wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 3:30 pm WE already had HS2 until 1963, it was called the Great Central and would've answered all the questions used to justify HS2 and for a tiny fraction of the money already spent.

So true

Tunnelling costs fortunes. If it does get shelved and Starmer objects , he can put the money where his mouth is should he get elected.