Independent Leyton Orient Forum

What does “Guide price between £375K and £425K” really mean?

Does it mean that £400K is the hoped for target after negotiation?

In a buyers market would you expect offers to come in at or below the lower figure?

It means nothing. Those are just figures to try and generate interest and, eventually, competitive bids. That's the best way for the vendor to achieve best price.

Right now prices are sliding. And all recently published figures (ONS, Nationwide, Halifax etc) are suggesting something in the region of a 5% slide since this time last year. But, those figures are all 6 months out of date.

This market has further to slide yet. The BTL crowd are beginning to panic, and listings are increasing (with buyer demand reducing). So only offer what you can afford assuming base rates at 6%, and that you'd be comfortable with a further slide into some negative equity territory.

I can try and post some of the recent economic and market analysis when I'm back in the office tomorrow. But feel free to take the piss with cheeky below guide price offers.

Why would BTL scumbags panic if they can just increase rents?

Some can, some can't.

But the average yield on a BTL is now not much better than a Santander savings account or Treasury bond. And those come with a lot less risk and hassle.

This, along with the previous removal of tax incentives, means that BTL is now simply a bad investment choice. And once a few start panicking and trying to sell it can generate a stampede.

Problem is there are so many waiting in the wings to buy up more properties. Í'd love the correction we so desperately need to happen but just can't see it.

PS will give you £350k cash, no chain, no surveys.

Always thought that getting someone else pay your mortgage seemed like a great investment, almost like a bug or exploit in the system.

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 2:53 pm It means nothing. Those are just figures to try and generate interest and, eventually, competitive bids. That's the best way for the vendor to achieve best price.

Right now prices are sliding. And all recently published figures (ONS, Nationwide, Halifax etc) are suggesting something in the region of a 5% slide since this time last year. But, those figures are all 6 months out of date.

This market has further to slide yet. The BTL crowd are beginning to panic, and listings are increasing (with buyer demand reducing). So only offer what you can afford assuming base rates at 6%, and that you'd be comfortable with a further slide into some negative equity territory.

I can try and post some of the recent economic and market analysis when I'm back in the office tomorrow. But feel free to take the piss with cheeky below guide price offers.

What are you on about? My question is purely about the use and meaning of the posted phrase. Absolutely nothing to do with buy to let. I was just wondering if there any estate agents on here who might shed some light. Some real numpties on this board.

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 4:16 pm Always thought that getting someone else pay your mortgage seemed like a great investment, almost like a bug or exploit in the system.

But current borrowing rates and current house prices mean it's not a great return.

BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 4:17 pm What are you on about? My question is purely about the use and meaning of the posted phrase. Absolutely nothing to do with buy to let. I was just wondering if there any estate agents on here who might shed some light. Some real numpties on this board.

Then my first paragraph answers your question.

But if you remain dissatisfied then feel free to submit a complaint to the management. Have a nice day.

Max Fowler wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 4:15 pm Problem is there are so many waiting in the wings to buy up more properties. Í'd love the correction we so desperately need to happen but just can't see it.

PS will give you £350k cash, no chain, no surveys.

Medium term, I make you right. But there will be a short term correction that will hit younger homeowners and private renters very hard. Somehow, but perhaps unsurprisingly, we're about to get the worst of all outcomes.

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 4:23 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 4:17 pm What are you on about? My question is purely about the use and meaning of the posted phrase. Absolutely nothing to do with buy to let. I was just wondering if there any estate agents on here who might shed some light. Some real numpties on this board.

Then my first paragraph answers your question.

But if you remain dissatisfied then feel free to submit a complaint to the management. Have a nice day.

It doesn’t answer it all but Hey-Ho no probs. Just wondered why you went off on one about taking the piss - totally uncalled for.

BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 4:30 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 4:23 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 4:17 pm What are you on about? My question is purely about the use and meaning of the posted phrase. Absolutely nothing to do with buy to let. I was just wondering if there any estate agents on here who might shed some light. Some real numpties on this board.

Then my first paragraph answers your question.

But if you remain dissatisfied then feel free to submit a complaint to the management. Have a nice day.

It doesn’t answer it all but Hey-Ho no probs. Just wondered why you went off on one about taking the piss - totally uncalled for.

I think you've misinterpreted my comment. That wasn't an attack on you.

Nobody is going to be able to give you a specific answer as there are too many unknowns.

Assuming Bonio is a BTL scumbag.

Max Fowler wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 4:19 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 4:16 pm Always thought that getting someone else pay your mortgage seemed like a great investment, almost like a bug or exploit in the system.

But current borrowing rates and current house prices mean it's not a great return.

They're getting a free house, how is that not a great return?

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 5:11 pm Assuming Bonio is a BTL scumbag.

Exactly. I've been called a lot worse over the years but BTL is something I've not done. Scumbag - well that's subjective.

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 5:13 pm

Max Fowler wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 4:19 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 4:16 pm Always thought that getting someone else pay your mortgage seemed like a great investment, almost like a bug or exploit in the system.

But current borrowing rates and current house prices mean it's not a great return.

They're getting a free house, how is that not a great return?

Also don’t understand this. So the idea is someone gets a mortgage, then rents the house out to cover the mortgage and maybe bring in an income? That seems a good return?

Or if you buy to let outright, then the rent is just income, and no downside?

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 5:13 pm

Max Fowler wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 4:19 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 4:16 pm Always thought that getting someone else pay your mortgage seemed like a great investment, almost like a bug or exploit in the system.

But current borrowing rates and current house prices mean it's not a great return.

They're getting a free house, how is that not a great return?

Many are on Interest Only mortgage deals. And those that are not still face rates of return worse than what their capital would generate in a decent savings account.

Sure, there could be a house at the end of it. But a large chunk of this crowd have been buying houses that give the best yields, which tend to be of the type (and in locations) that are not seen as desirable by owner occupiers. And if BTL is now seen as a sub-prime investment option, who are they going to sell to?

The big investment firms, which are looking at the UK rental market, are not interested in these properties either. They want large scale Build To Rent options on high-density blocks of flats. And many of their former tenants will be less likely to qualify for mortgage products.

BTL is over and, for those who are highly leveraged and have not invested through limited companies, the next few years could be a painful experience.

CEB wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 5:30 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 5:13 pm

Max Fowler wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 4:19 pm

But current borrowing rates and current house prices mean it's not a great return.

They're getting a free house, how is that not a great return?

Also don’t understand this. So the idea is someone gets a mortgage, then rents the house out to cover the mortgage and maybe bring in an income? That seems a good return?

Or if you buy to let outright, then the rent is just income, and no downside?

Budget in:
Initial captial investment (say, 40% of purchase price)
Redecoration every, say, 5 years.
Refurbishment every 8 to 10 years.
Periods of vacancy
Possible annual Ground Rent and Service Charges if a flat
Tenants who just don't pay and require expensive legal process to remove (it happens)
Major repairs (roof, boiler etc)
If you have a mortgage, rapidly increasing rates
Etc

When base rates are at decent levels (which they are now), that 40% capital investment could easily generate a similar return on investment without any of the above risk or hassle. Stick it in a stock and shares ISA or pension and you get better tax incentives too.

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 5:41 pm

CEB wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 5:30 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 5:13 pm


They're getting a free house, how is that not a great return?

Also don’t understand this. So the idea is someone gets a mortgage, then rents the house out to cover the mortgage and maybe bring in an income? That seems a good return?

Or if you buy to let outright, then the rent is just income, and no downside?

Budget in:
Initial captial investment (say, 40% of purchase price)
Redecoration every, say, 5 years.
Refurbishment every 8 to 10 years.
Periods of vacancy
Possible annual Ground Rent and Service Charges if a flat
Tenants who just don't pay and require expensive legal process to remove (it happens)
Major repairs (roof, boiler etc)
If you have a mortgage, rapidly increasing rates
Etc

When base rates are at decent levels (which they are now), that 40% capital investment could easily generate a similar return on investment without any of the above risk or hassle. Stick it in a stock and shares ISA or pension and you get better tax incentives too.

Many thanks for the financial advice.

I will be selling up my property portfolio and sticking it all into shares immediately. Thanks once again.

Put it all in Lego. Holds its price better than gold apparently.

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 3:18 pm Some can, some can't.

But the average yield on a BTL is now not much better than a Santander savings account or Treasury bond. And those come with a lot less risk and hassle.

This, along with the previous removal of tax incentives, means that BTL is now simply a bad investment choice. And once a few start panicking and trying to sell it can generate a stampede.

A good summation
BTL only works if a landlord has little or no borrowings
In thst scenario landlords are loving the hikes in rental levels which are occurring due to falling availability of property to rent

But if they don’t have interest only mortgage then their asset is being paid for.

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 5:41 pm

CEB wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 5:30 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 5:13 pm


They're getting a free house, how is that not a great return?

Also don’t understand this. So the idea is someone gets a mortgage, then rents the house out to cover the mortgage and maybe bring in an income? That seems a good return?

Or if you buy to let outright, then the rent is just income, and no downside?

Budget in:
Initial captial investment (say, 40% of purchase price)
Redecoration every, say, 5 years.
Refurbishment every 8 to 10 years.
Periods of vacancy
Possible annual Ground Rent and Service Charges if a flat
Tenants who just don't pay and require expensive legal process to remove (it happens)
Major repairs (roof, boiler etc)
If you have a mortgage, rapidly increasing rates
Etc

When base rates are at decent levels (which they are now), that 40% capital investment could easily generate a similar return on investment without any of the above risk or hassle. Stick it in a stock and shares ISA or pension and you get better tax incentives too.

Good comment. People don’t factor this stuff in. My missus did it for 3 years and hated it. The stress of getting a call saying the boilers failed, or random little things that needs replacing. Paid someone to manage it and they’d just get in the most expensive people to do the jobs - think a light switch cost her about 250 quid once. Also she had pay an accountant and the whole annual account stuff. It’s a pain

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 8:21 pm But if they don’t have interest only mortgage then their asset is being paid for.

Yes, obviously.

Assuming their other costs do not exceed their income from time to time.

BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 4:17 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 2:53 pm It means nothing. Those are just figures to try and generate interest and, eventually, competitive bids. That's the best way for the vendor to achieve best price.

Right now prices are sliding. And all recently published figures (ONS, Nationwide, Halifax etc) are suggesting something in the region of a 5% slide since this time last year. But, those figures are all 6 months out of date.

This market has further to slide yet. The BTL crowd are beginning to panic, and listings are increasing (with buyer demand reducing). So only offer what you can afford assuming base rates at 6%, and that you'd be comfortable with a further slide into some negative equity territory.

I can try and post some of the recent economic and market analysis when I'm back in the office tomorrow. But feel free to take the piss with cheeky below guide price offers.

What are you on about? My question is purely about the use and meaning of the posted phrase. Absolutely nothing to do with buy to let. I was just wondering if there any estate agents on here who might shed some light. Some real numpties on this board.

Why don’t you go and find out yourself by asking an estate agent rather than posting on here? I know Dunners doesn’t care about your rudeness but he’s posted a decent reply and you’ve just been nasty - not your first time on here being nasty and rude.
Don’t remember you standing out on the board before the last few months so maybe somethings happened and I hope you are ok but you are coming across badly recently.