Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Chicken Dhansak wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:10 pm Do you have any interest in Leyton Orient
Football Club at all?

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:47 pm Having a kid is the best thing I’ve ever done. Easily.

Saying that, it is a selfish act for some of the reasons you state. Also a case of finite resources being used by another human in an already overpopulated world. There’s also already a lot of kids already out there who desperately need a home. But I still did it.

We have one and I don’t think there will be another but I think we’d consider adopting at some point. Maybe once the trauma of looking after a small human has subsided.

Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 7:31 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:47 pm Having a kid is the best thing I’ve ever done. Easily.

Saying that, it is a selfish act for some of the reasons you state. Also a case of finite resources being used by another human in an already overpopulated world. There’s also already a lot of kids already out there who desperately need a home. But I still did it.

We have one and I don’t think there will be another but I think we’d consider adopting at some point. Maybe once the trauma of looking after a small human has subsided.

The latest UN demographic data suggests that the human population will peak by mid-century and then go into decline. We may well be living at the moment when there is the most amount of humans that will ever exist. So ease your guilt and ignore all that "overpopulated world" guff. Have as many kids as you want.

The Reverend wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:34 pm For many, this question will seem foolish. Of course having children is a good thing, they will say.

However, there is a position which states that not only is having children not a good thing, it is actually a morally bad thing to do.

The basic structure of this argument goes that somebody cannot be harmed by NOT being bought into existence.

In contrast, bringing somebody into existence has the potential to bring great harm to that person via suffering.

A step even further goes that even if somebody has a great life by bringing them into existence they are forced to be conscious, and the price of consciousness is the awareness that they and everyone they love will inevitably die one day. This causes great anxiety to the conscious being and one could argue is a great harm to them.

So there you have it.

1. Don’t have a child. Nobody gets hurt as they never exist to be hurt and they don’t have to suffer the psychological hurt of knowing that they will die one day

2. Have a child. They are at risk of suffering all manner of physical and/or psychological hurt during their life and even if they manage to avoid all of that they still have to live with knowledge of the sting of death

What are your thoughts?

CEB wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:55 pm Your question has a flawed premise; it uses only “hurt” and “suffering” as examples of the experiences that come with being alive.

You could make an exact equivalent argument with the opposite false premise; “Not bringing a life into the world means that the joy that the hypothetical person may have experienced definitely won’t exist, while bringing a life into the world brings potential to experience all types of joy”

I don’t necessarily agree with either take, but the full range of experiences are essential when discussing such things

The Reverend wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:34 pm For many, this question will seem foolish. Of course having children is a good thing, they will say.

However, there is a position which states that not only is having children not a good thing, it is actually a morally bad thing to do.

The basic structure of this argument goes that somebody cannot be harmed by NOT being bought into existence.

In contrast, bringing somebody into existence has the potential to bring great harm to that person via suffering.

A step even further goes that even if somebody has a great life by bringing them into existence they are forced to be conscious, and the price of consciousness is the awareness that they and everyone they love will inevitably die one day. This causes great anxiety to the conscious being and one could argue is a great harm to them.

So there you have it.

1. Don’t have a child. Nobody gets hurt as they never exist to be hurt and they don’t have to suffer the psychological hurt of knowing that they will die one day

2. Have a child. They are at risk of suffering all manner of physical and/or psychological hurt during their life and even if they manage to avoid all of that they still have to live with knowledge of the sting of death

What are your thoughts?

Type high wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:22 am

The Reverend wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:34 pm For many, this question will seem foolish. Of course having children is a good thing, they will say.

However, there is a position which states that not only is having children not a good thing, it is actually a morally bad thing to do.

The basic structure of this argument goes that somebody cannot be harmed by NOT being bought into existence.

In contrast, bringing somebody into existence has the potential to bring great harm to that person via suffering.

A step even further goes that even if somebody has a great life by bringing them into existence they are forced to be conscious, and the price of consciousness is the awareness that they and everyone they love will inevitably die one day. This causes great anxiety to the conscious being and one could argue is a great harm to them.

So there you have it.

1. Don’t have a child. Nobody gets hurt as they never exist to be hurt and they don’t have to suffer the psychological hurt of knowing that they will die one day

2. Have a child. They are at risk of suffering all manner of physical and/or psychological hurt during their life and even if they manage to avoid all of that they still have to live with knowledge of the sting of death

What are your thoughts?

What a load of crap

The Reverend wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:34 pm For many, this question will seem foolish. Of course having children is a good thing, they will say.

However, there is a position which states that not only is having children not a good thing, it is actually a morally bad thing to do.

The basic structure of this argument goes that somebody cannot be harmed by NOT being bought into existence.

In contrast, bringing somebody into existence has the potential to bring great harm to that person via suffering.

A step even further goes that even if somebody has a great life by bringing them into existence they are forced to be conscious, and the price of consciousness is the awareness that they and everyone they love will inevitably die one day. This causes great anxiety to the conscious being and one could argue is a great harm to them.

So there you have it.

1. Don’t have a child. Nobody gets hurt as they never exist to be hurt and they don’t have to suffer the psychological hurt of knowing that they will die one day

2. Have a child. They are at risk of suffering all manner of physical and/or psychological hurt during their life and even if they manage to avoid all of that they still have to live with knowledge of the sting of death

What are your thoughts?

The Reverend wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:54 am

Type high wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:22 am

The Reverend wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:34 pm For many, this question will seem foolish. Of course having children is a good thing, they will say.

However, there is a position which states that not only is having children not a good thing, it is actually a morally bad thing to do.

The basic structure of this argument goes that somebody cannot be harmed by NOT being bought into existence.

In contrast, bringing somebody into existence has the potential to bring great harm to that person via suffering.

A step even further goes that even if somebody has a great life by bringing them into existence they are forced to be conscious, and the price of consciousness is the awareness that they and everyone they love will inevitably die one day. This causes great anxiety to the conscious being and one could argue is a great harm to them.

So there you have it.

1. Don’t have a child. Nobody gets hurt as they never exist to be hurt and they don’t have to suffer the psychological hurt of knowing that they will die one day

2. Have a child. They are at risk of suffering all manner of physical and/or psychological hurt during their life and even if they manage to avoid all of that they still have to live with knowledge of the sting of death

What are your thoughts?

What a load of crap

How so?

Type high wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:16 pm

The Reverend wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:54 am

Type high wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:22 am

What a load of crap

How so?

The most natural thing in the world that is inbuilt into us without which we wouldn't be here and you try and put a downer on it

The Reverend wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:46 pm

Type high wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:16 pm

The Reverend wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:54 am

How so?

The most natural thing in the world that is inbuilt into us without which we wouldn't be here and you try and put a downer on it

Something being natural doesn’t make it automatically morally right. That is known as the is/ought fallacy.

Also, I’m not putting a downer on anything. I’m asking people what they think.

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:36 am So long as he gets a round in, downer or not, he'll be welcome down the pub.

DrWindy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:48 am Having a conversation with your 5 year old daughter that she will die one day shouldn’t be trivialised. It’s actually quite thought provoking and ultimately very sad.