The trans debate

[CEB]

The latest on Mermaids is damning, and proves that they lied in court.

Who would’ve thought that my “immutable drift to the right” actually just meant “you were right”?

Anyone still want to stick up for those homophobic, child abusing bastards?

[Max Fowler]

Link please, what have they done now?

[CEB]

An FOI was put in, Tavistock/Mermaids refused to release emails between Susie Green and the Tavistock. They were threatened with the high court and then released 300 pages of emails. The thread below gives a good overview

[Max B Gold]

Is your Kevin Lister the same person who was sacked as a teacher for gross misconduct?

[CEB]

I don’t give a f*** about the person who wrote the thread. I’m interested in the substance of the thread. And I’m not interested in discussing this issue with you anymore, you’re a lazy pathetic drunkard

[BoniO]

Happy Bank Holiday everyone

[CEB]

No point in anything other than dismissal of a guy who makes it plain he’s on a WUM on this thread.

[Long slender neck]

Pinknews says the reason is they only had 18 hours to respond to the foi? Sounds dubious.

[Max B Gold]

I don’t give a f*** about the person who wrote the thread. I’m interested in the substance of the thread. And I’m not interested in discussing this issue with you anymore, you’re a lazy pathetic drunkard

So you are repeating the analysis of a gender obsessive who was sacked for repeatedly refusing to recognise the chosen gender of a 17 year old pupil. From the little I have read of his analysis I see he's making multiple assumptions and biased interpretations.

I thought you agreed that to be nice you accepted you were happy to use the correct pronouns. Seems that as part of your alliance with the far right and teachers sacked for gross misconduct you have back tracked on this small concession in the culture war. Get back on your meds you wankstain.

[CEB]

Pinknews says the reason is they only had 18 hours to respond to the foi? Sounds dubious.

Most of what pinknews writes is dubious

[CEB]

^ lol at the idea that I’m going to engage with the guy who’s admitted he’s on a wind up. Nah, you’re alright.

[CEB]

Turns out that the evil JK Rowling actually understands the situation fully, too

[tuffers#1]

No point in anything other than dismissal of a guy who makes it plain he’s on a WUM on this thread.

[tuffers#1]

On this page

[tuffers#1]

For Someone not engaging

Is your Kevin Lister the same person who was sacked as a teacher for gross misconduct?

I don’t give a f*** about the person who wrote the thread. I’m interested in the substance of the thread. And I’m not interested in discussing this issue with you anymore, you’re a lazy pathetic drunkard

I don’t give a f*** about the person who wrote the thread. I’m interested in the substance of the thread. And I’m not interested in discussing this issue with you anymore, you’re a lazy pathetic drunkard

No point in anything other than dismissal of a guy who makes it plain he’s on a WUM on this thread.

So you are repeating the analysis of a gender obsessive who was sacked for repeatedly refusing to recognise the chosen gender of a 17 year old pupil. From the little I have read of his analysis I see he's making multiple assumptions and biased interpretations.

I thought you agreed that to be nice you accepted you were happy to use the correct pronouns. Seems that as part of your alliance with the far right and teachers sacked for gross misconduct you have back tracked on this small concession in the culture war. Get back on your meds you wankstain.

^ lol at the idea that I’m going to engage with the guy who’s admitted he’s on a wind up. Nah, you’re alright.

There seems to be a lot of engaging .
O.B.E .

Orient's

[Adz]

We might be seeing the end of gender transition surgery for under 18's as insurance companies are starting to refuse to insure doctors for it due to high levels of regret.

[Long slender neck]

Just horrific to think under 18s have had that surgery. Is it not illegal here anyway?

[FrankOFile]

Just horrific to think under 18s have had that surgery. Is it not illegal here anyway?

If not, it should be.

[CEB]

We might be seeing the end of gender transition surgery for under 18's as insurance companies are starting to refuse to insure doctors for it due to high levels of regret.

Gender reassignment surgery doesn’t happen for under 18s (or if it does, it is rare)

The issue is a bit more complex, and is why puberty blockers are at the crux of the issue.

Basically, all available evidence suggests that childhood gender dysphoria is, in the vast majority of cases “cured” by puberty - that, as we all know, young people undergo massive physical and cognitive development in puberty. Basically it’s that development process which is how a young male child who is seen as “effeminate” might mature into a gay man, and reconcile with his body (again, all the evidence suggests that this is exactly the kind of thing that happens when gender non conforming children are left alone, and allowed to be themselves without labelling them as “trans”

The “puberty blockers” though, don’t *treat* gender dysphoria, they arrest the development of a child at the stage their dysphoria is at its worst, and where the child isn’t developing physically or cognitively, and where they’re existing in a context where adults around them are lovebombing them and treating their “trans child” as special (remember the “indigo children” nonsense from a couple of decades ago? Like that.)

In that context, almost 100% of children put on puberty blockers go on to have cross-sex hormones, which cause infertility, and then on a pathway to surgery.

The question then is is it the case that
A: the Tavistock/Mermaids et al were so completely brilliant at diagnosing children who were trans that they got it so right with who to put on puberty blockers?

B: Mermaids & the Tavistock were affirming any and every child presenting with distress about their sexed body as “trans”, refusing to see any other issues other than that they were being “their true selves”, and then giving them powerful hormonal interventions that prevented them from naturally growing out of the trans phase, all the while affirming the idea that to be trans is to be very special?

Many people who worked at the Tavistock and blew the whistle are clear on their belief: that clinic effectively runs a conveyor belt to sterilise gay children.
It’s also apparent that the charities “supporting” trans children are absolutely not helping those children to explore other avenues, other causes, or promoting the idea that the best outcome is to reconcile with their bodies (in fact they actively suggest that wanting that outcome is transphobic) Their whole ethos is “children know who they are”

[Max Fowler]

ie, that we include non masculine men as being like us

Just catching up on the latest few pages of this thread and have to seek clarification on this matter. I broadly agree with your views on the subject, if not your debating style, but have to take issue with this. Are you seriously referring to yourself as part of the group 'masculine men'?

[CEB]

ie, that we include non masculine men as being like us

Just catching up on the latest few pages of this thread and have to seek clarification on this matter. I broadly agree with your views on the subject, if not your debating style, but have to take issue with this. Are you seriously referring to yourself as part of the group 'masculine men'?

Eh? I’m a classic alpha male!

Seriously though, you do hit on a relevant point here; while that’s a good joke, you’d be livid if your kids were being taught that “masculinity” is a measure of maleness, and “femininity” a measure of femaleness. It’s not said out loud, but it’s exactly what the LGBT (specifically the T) are reinforcing when they do workshops in schools.

[CEB]

What are the demands beyond access to female spaces? You never hear about trans people req access to mens spaces.

An important thing to understand is that the underpinning demand isn’t to allow biologically male people to access female spaces: that would be an argument that could be engaged with, where compromise could be found, and where there could be productive discussion about which spaces it is and isn’t appropriate to open to male people who identify as women.

What the demand actually *is* is that laws, policy and language should change to reflect this idea: we all, every one of us, have an innate sense of ourselves called gender identity that may or may not align with our body. What we’d think of as our sexed bodies therefore are not the basis on which we should organise society, because a person with the gender identity “woman” - which has no criteria applied to it by trans activism, no definition - *is* female, regardless of sex.
That’s why if you take the sport question for example, trans activism isn’t interested in addressing the fairness, because as far as the underpinning ideology goes, trans women belong in women’s sport because they *are* female, with *female* now meaning “person who identifies as a woman”, and so if a trans woman is stronger/faster than women, that’s simply because - “yay, this woman, who is oppressed by society based on her being trans, is EXCELLENT at sport”

There are lots of negative implications here, but one of the biggest is the suggestion that female people who know that they are female people are assumed to be less oppressed by patriarchy, by gender expectations etc, than male people who identify as female.

And that’s before you get into the sexist nonsense that is a male person’s internal idea of what a female sense of identity might consist of

The first post I did here outlining my issues with trans activism. As yet nobody has put forward a substantial counterpoint to this fundamental point

[Long slender neck]

Looks like you won the Internet then

[Max Fowler]

Looks like you won the Internet then

Again.

[CEB]

Wouldn't it be easier if, instead of having Women's and Men's classifications, sports just had Female and Open. The Open classification is there for anyone to compete in (based on merit, of course) the female for biological females. Women who can't make the female criteria are still able to compete in the Open classification, if they're good enough.

It absolutely would. But that’s to misunderstand what is happening. The reason William Thomas wants to compete in the female category is for validation of his claimed gender identity. The open category wouldn’t do that, and so trans activism won’t support it. In every aspect, what underpins trans activism is that identity is what determines gender and sex- the body is irrelevant. As far as mainstream trans activism is concerned, in the category “people with the gender identity ‘woman’”, Thomas has a natural advantage that is equivalent to any woman being naturally strong, or tall. Even suppressing testosterone is something trans activism takes issue with, because they don’t believe any steps need to be taken for someone to be as much a woman as any female human

Told you.