Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Why are these islamic extremist groups so prelevant?

Iran has invested heavily over the decades in long-term projects throughout the region, that seek to ferment Islamic revolutionary movements that will eventually overthrow the ruling regimes. It's why the Gulf states, middle-Eastern and North African states are so concerned, as they worry about their own populations being captured by the allure.

Under the Abraham Accords, the US has acted to provide those states with a cross-regional security settlement that was supposed to keep these Islamic revolutionary movements supressed and on the fringes. The reaction and frosty reception afforded to Blinken in his recent state visits suggest that they are rapidly losing confidence in the US.

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:24 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:05 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:05 am Hamas has to go dont they? Unelected terrorists who bring only misery.

It seems with each war or act of violence the palestinians just lose more and more territory.

The idea of terrorism as a global problem is a creature of the 1970s and 1980s, when first Israel and then the US persuaded themselves and the world that Palestinian defensive violence was not an anti-colonial insistence on self-determination but rather part of an upsurge of world violence that threatened our (western) civilisation.

To hear the UK’s defence secretary shout on the BBC that Hamas must be called “terrorists” is to realise how much damage this fatuous label has done.

The old British empire called its opponents (whether in India, Malaya, Kenya, or Cyprus) terrorists. The description does not end debate even if its users hope that it will. The past victims of colonial aggression in the Global South know this, even if we do not.

Are you including the Sykes–Picot Agreement as a form of colonial aggression?

Might as well.

Iran say, they are on the brink of attacking Israel, and will do if Israel enters Gaza for a ground offensive.

what with Fighting against Hezbollah in the north, Hamas in the west, a third front will be almost impossible for the Zionists.

Obviously, America wont allow Israel to be wiped out, and after that its anyones guess, who else might get involved

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:22 pm Iran say, they are on the brink of attacking Israel, and will do if Israel enters Gaza for a ground offensive.

what with Fighting against Hezbollah in the north, Hamas in the west, a third front will be almost impossible for the Zionists.

Obviously, America wont allow Israel to be wiped out, and after that its anyones guess, who else might get involved

Sounds like Iran attacking Israel directly wouldn’t be a good thing

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 12:56 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:05 am Hamas has to go dont they? Unelected terrorists who bring only misery.

It seems with each war or act of violence the palestinians just lose more and more territory.

Hamas are elected.

They contested the 2006 election in Gaza on the basis that they were going to be proper mental and fight the Zionists and not bother with any diplomatic approaches. They subsequently got 44.5% of the vote (Fatah got 41.4%). Because of the FPTP electoral system, this awarded them a working majority. This was when any possibility of a two-state solution effectively ended (although it was already unlikely for a variety of reasons, of which Israel deserves its fair share of the blame).

44.5% vote for Hamas well that backfired

Of course, no reasonable person would expect Israel to have an open border with a hostile, terrorist state.

Should any country have to ensure the supply of food, water, electricity to people they're at war with? A lot of people have said its a war crime but is it much different from sanctions?

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 4:17 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 12:56 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:05 am Hamas has to go dont they? Unelected terrorists who bring only misery.

It seems with each war or act of violence the palestinians just lose more and more territory.

Hamas are elected.

They contested the 2006 election in Gaza on the basis that they were going to be proper mental and fight the Zionists and not bother with any diplomatic approaches. They subsequently got 44.5% of the vote (Fatah got 41.4%). Because of the FPTP electoral system, this awarded them a working majority. This was when any possibility of a two-state solution effectively ended (although it was already unlikely for a variety of reasons, of which Israel deserves its fair share of the blame).

44.5% vote for Hamas well that backfired

Of course, no reasonable person would expect Israel to have an open border with a hostile, terrorist state.

This is the point when people will comment that most Palestinians did not vote for Hamas, and many were not even born at the time of the 2006 election. This is all true. But a significant proportion at the time did vote for them. And the children born since then have been educated in a system funded by Iran (while having to live under Israeli containment), so can be assumed to be largely indoctrinated.

Israel is deserving of plenty of the criticism that comes its way and what is currently playing out are the consequences of actions and decisions it has previously taken. But from its perspective, not only is it surrounded by its enemies, but it will have a large number of them living within the Palestinian territories. As complicit as Israel may be in the circumstances that have led to this situation, this is not something that any state would ever be able to tolerate.

There's no easy way out of this. However, following Blinken's poor experience, I see that Biden is now flying in to meet with leaders of Israel, Jordan, Egypt and Palestine. This sounds like a last ditch attempt to de-escalate. Bloody hope it works but, if it does, Biden will deserve some serious credit.

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 4:20 pm Should any country have to ensure the supply of food, water, electricity to people they're at war with? A lot of people have said its a war crime but is it much different from sanctions?

The Israelis have said should the 199 hostages being held currently by Hamas be released then the block on water and power will be lifted

I look forward to all those concerned about the siege on resources to call for the release of hostages immediately

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:26 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:22 pm Iran say, they are on the brink of attacking Israel, and will do if Israel enters Gaza for a ground offensive.

what with Fighting against Hezbollah in the north, Hamas in the west, a third front will be almost impossible for the Zionists.

Obviously, America wont allow Israel to be wiped out, and after that its anyones guess, who else might get involved

Sounds like Iran attacking Israel directly wouldn’t be a good thing

Iran don't have a border with Israel so presumably can't attack directly by land, sea option seems unlikely, by air, would they survive long enough, I wonder if the young Iranians have the same view of Israel, it could be attacking Israel eg through Lebanon or Syria could open up the possibility of regime change.

Harlow wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 4:29 pm

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:26 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:22 pm Iran say, they are on the brink of attacking Israel, and will do if Israel enters Gaza for a ground offensive.

what with Fighting against Hezbollah in the north, Hamas in the west, a third front will be almost impossible for the Zionists.

Obviously, America wont allow Israel to be wiped out, and after that its anyones guess, who else might get involved

Sounds like Iran attacking Israel directly wouldn’t be a good thing

Iran don't have a border with Israel so presumably can't attack directly by land, sea option seems unlikely, by air, would they survive long enough, I wonder if the young Iranians have the same view of Israel, it could be attacking Israel eg through Lebanon or Syria could open up the possibility of regime change.

Hang on, are you saying COYO’s sources aren’t rock solid?

He’s been researching it for 40 years after all

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 4:28 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 4:20 pm Should any country have to ensure the supply of food, water, electricity to people they're at war with? A lot of people have said its a war crime but is it much different from sanctions?

The Israelis have said should the 199 hostages being held currently by Hamas be released then the block on water and power will be lifted

I look forward to all those concerned about the siege on resources to call for the release of hostages immediately

Who would think that the hostages shouldn't be released? What an odd comment.

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 4:20 pm Should any country have to ensure the supply of food, water, electricity to people they're at war with? A lot of people have said its a war crime but is it much different from sanctions?

People are easy to cite ‘war crimes’ without knowing the definition. There are several on line but not clear cut and interpretation is complicated. Israel is a democratic sovereign state and as such is entitled to defend itself. Hamas is a terrorist group intent on the total destruction of Israel. Palestinian civilians are caught up in this situation instigated by Hamas. Any charges of war criminality will be judged ultimately by the UN.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 4:48 pm

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 4:28 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 4:20 pm Should any country have to ensure the supply of food, water, electricity to people they're at war with? A lot of people have said its a war crime but is it much different from sanctions?

The Israelis have said should the 199 hostages being held currently by Hamas be released then the block on water and power will be lifted

I look forward to all those concerned about the siege on resources to call for the release of hostages immediately

Who would think that the hostages shouldn't be released? What an odd comment.

Anyone who hasn’t called for it unconditionally but has suggested it be predicated on something else, like a prisoner swap for example.

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 5:11 pm

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 4:48 pm

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 4:28 pm

The Israelis have said should the 199 hostages being held currently by Hamas be released then the block on water and power will be lifted

I look forward to all those concerned about the siege on resources to call for the release of hostages immediately

Who would think that the hostages shouldn't be released? What an odd comment.

Anyone who hasn’t called for it unconditionally but has suggested it be predicated on something else, like a prisoner swap for example.

Wum fail

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 4:20 pm Should any country have to ensure the supply of food, water, electricity to people they're at war with? A lot of people have said its a war crime but is it much different from sanctions?

Well, when they tightly control those things already it’s a bit of a unique situation

Ouch. Looks like it's been verified too. That could be enough to really spark things off.

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 6:36 pm

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 5:11 pm

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 4:48 pm

Who would think that the hostages shouldn't be released? What an odd comment.

Anyone who hasn’t called for it unconditionally but has suggested it be predicated on something else, like a prisoner swap for example.

Wum fail

People have done that on this thread

Do you think Hamas should release hostages unconditionally?

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 5:09 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 4:20 pm Should any country have to ensure the supply of food, water, electricity to people they're at war with? A lot of people have said its a war crime but is it much different from sanctions?

People are easy to cite ‘war crimes’ without knowing the definition. There are several on line but not clear cut and interpretation is complicated. Israel is a democratic sovereign state and as such is entitled to defend itself. Hamas is a terrorist group intent on the total destruction of Israel. Palestinian civilians are caught up in this situation instigated by Hamas. Any charges of war criminality will be judged ultimately by the UN.

Why on Earth didn't you tell us before that Israel is a "democratic sovereign state"? Don't keep these things to yourself!

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 7:13 pm

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 5:09 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 4:20 pm Should any country have to ensure the supply of food, water, electricity to people they're at war with? A lot of people have said its a war crime but is it much different from sanctions?

People are easy to cite ‘war crimes’ without knowing the definition. There are several on line but not clear cut and interpretation is complicated. Israel is a democratic sovereign state and as such is entitled to defend itself. Hamas is a terrorist group intent on the total destruction of Israel. Palestinian civilians are caught up in this situation instigated by Hamas. Any charges of war criminality will be judged ultimately by the UN.

Why on Earth didn't you tell us before that Israel is a "democratic sovereign state"? Don't keep these things to yourself!

Well some people, including you no doubt, seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that this Democratic sovereign state are defending themselves from terrorists. Hamas has no concern for the innocent civilian Palestinians, the love terror and bloodshed, it suits their agenda to escalate matters, especially with neighbouring Despot led countries and the superpowers.

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:54 pm So that is an intended private prosecution?

Starmer will know the level and quality of the evidence required so I don’t think he will as yet be quaking in his boots but this stance he is taking will certainly make a dent in his reputation. I personally feel that it is a bit premature citing war crimes at this stage . It will be an interesting outcome.

This war crimey enough for you?

https://x.com/JustJewsUK/status/1714335753629540454

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 7:11 pm

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 6:36 pm

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 5:11 pm

Anyone who hasn’t called for it unconditionally but has suggested it be predicated on something else, like a prisoner swap for example.

Wum fail

People have done that on this thread

Do you think Hamas should release hostages unconditionally?

Obviously

This hospital explosion is bad.

Some Israeli-biased accounts are suggesting it could be a misfired Hamas rocket, but I'm not buying that. The sound and payload suggest either an airstrike or Israeli rocket. There is plenty of footage, so any doubt likely to be removed soon.

It feels like the kind of moment that will result in either escalation or de-escalation. But it's going to have consequences.

Hospital strike- some tweets saying it was a stray hamas rocket.

Guess it could be a while before any facts emerge.